This Restorative Justice Life
Restorative Justice is often framed as an alternative to punishment, and but that’s only part of the story.
Dive deeper with David Ryan Barcega Castro-Harris in conversation with RJ practitioners and other justice seekers as they reflect on the things happening in the world around us to offer insight on how YOU can embody RJ philosophy, practices, and values in every aspect of your life.
This Restorative Justice Life
Abbott Elementary S1E8 "Work Family" w/ Jose Vilson (Restorative Justice Reflections)
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How can you use Restorative Justice in setting boundaries with co-workers, life as a black male educator, and connecting with students before getting to content? Find out on this episode of Restorative Justice Reflections!
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Heyo, david here. Restored of Justice Reflections was created as a video first medium because we're including video clips from the shows we're talking about. You can still hear our full conversation here with the audio from the clip, but for the full experience and to see our beautiful faces, head over to our YouTube page link below. If you're only going podcasts or your thing, please bear with the mentions of video and clips and use your imagination. Enjoy.
Speaker 2:Look on the bright side. Now we get to all stay inside and have lunch together, which will be nice because, despite what some people say, we all love each other like one big, happy family.
Speaker 1:Welcome back to Restored of Justice Reflections. I'm David Ryan Barcaga Castro here, so all five names are all the ancestors. And today I'm here with Jose Wilson to dive deep into the restorative themes or lack thereof found in season one, episode eight of ABC's Abba Elementary work family. As always, our conversation here is not a critique of the story or production choices of the creators, but we will highlight how restorative justice can apply to situations like setting boundaries with colleagues, life as a blackmail educator and connecting with students. Before we get to teaching content.
Speaker 1:Hopefully, this will give you some insight about how to apply restorative ways of being into your life in and out of the classroom. If you want to take a deeper look at applying restorative justice to your life, join our Inner Circle community to connect with RJ-minded individuals and get bonus content. Deepen your practice by checking out our courses and if you want to see this work in your school or organization, invite us for coaching or training on implementing this work, of course, links to everything down below. Now let's get to it. Jose, it is so good to be with you. I'm really excited to be having this conversation about this episode specifically with you, but before we do that, tell the folks who you are and yeah.
Speaker 3:Thanks for having me, david. My name is Jose Wilson. I'm the executive director of EduColor, an organization dedicated to race and social justice issues. I'm also a full-time doctoral student at Teachers College, columbia University, studying sociology and education, and, of course, I was a veteran math teacher in Washington Heights, new York City, for the better part of 15 years, as well as a math instructional course. So I come at this with multiple hats, not to mention a father, husband and all the activists and all these other, I guess, denominations, but just happy to be here today.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely. You know, I reached out and when I asked you what episode you wanted to talk about, it was this one you were like, very clear, like this is exactly what I want to talk about. Tell us about your relationship with the show Abbott Elementary.
Speaker 3:Abbott Elementary is probably the best show that I've seen on a network around public education since Boston Public, which if you were alive and conscious around that time then you would have known. That was a really good show and I think it only lasted, unfortunately, four seasons. I know that a lot of people highlight the wire too, as I think it was season four where they had the education portion, but generally speaking, this show actually more thoroughly does the best job I've seen about talking about the actual profession and to pour in our best hopes and aspirations for what we want the profession to be in a way that I hadn't seen in a real long time. So I was grateful for the show and of course, I've been waiting for the season two finale to just so I can actually watch it in full. So I haven't actually watched any episodes from season two until, like, I actually got to see that season one and full, and now that it's all done I could see season two as well.
Speaker 1:This episode work family was so full of moments to talk about Again. Summary courtesy of Wikipedia. On the large part, we have Janine being upset that Jacob only thinks of her as a work friend and she tries to build better relationships with her coworkers through some community building, coerced by some food, some chicken. At the same time, barbara and Melissa are trying to help Gregory with his teaching methods after his class is bound to be underperforming in math. On the side, janine has also enlisted to wreak her boyfriend to perform an anti at the anti drug program at her school. Gregory also receives a phone call from his dad who is advising Gregory that he should move on from substitute teaching at Abbott. Where do you want to start?
Speaker 3:We could start anywhere. I mean, the reason why I wanted this episode so badly was because I felt like Gregory was so reflective of my experience as a black male educator in our schools and so we could potentially start from there. That'd be great.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's go. You know, Gregory we see in this episode and over the course of the season so far has been coming to grips with his role as a teacher. Right, we've seen him like buying, like you know what, I'm going to stick it out here for the year Right, but he's still struggling in some ways to be the teacher that he wants to be, be the teacher that his students deserve. Right, we've seen efforts at relationship building in the past, but what about his journey in this episode resonated with you?
Speaker 3:There's something about how teachers have been trained over the course of the last I would just say century, like after my research, but really like to give a personal perspective. We often get taught don't smile until December. Right, like that's been a common phrase, like a stone at us, or that we have to find a way to depersonalize the work in order for us to truly tap into what students do. But what this episode does is it flips that notion on his head and says here is somebody who is constantly professional, but yet it's not connected to students in the ways that he desires or that his colleagues are pointing out for him. And so this episode says no, actually you should try to inject as much of your personal self as you can, or you know, as as you're slowly melting that ice around you, that you're able to actually build those connections with students in order for them to learn. Right, like that goes hand in hand.
Speaker 1:Right. Yeah, we see him like repeatedly drilling his students on their their math problems in efforts to teach to the test. Right, because they are quote unquote, underperforming. Right, but we all know the old adage like people don't care how much you know, or like what you can do for them until they know how much you care, right.
Speaker 2:Farmer Hank has five turkeys, then he buys four more. How many turkeys does Farmer Hank have? Are any turkeys pregnant Guys? Let's focus. Ok, you know what we're going to do more math drills. So the whole class is underperforming specifically in math. So we're taking time in recess to practice and get those scores up.
Speaker 1:Let's let's focus in on just the math of this and is not really connecting with the students. Fortunately for Gregory right there are veteran teachers in the space who are like here. Let me put you on game a little bit. And so, in the conversations that he had with Melissa and Barbara, what was it that stood out to you? What was it that you appreciated?
Speaker 3:There was. I mean, obviously there's the culminating part where he finally starts like seeing and dancing in accordance to the math itself, but Melissa's portion where she also mentioned Um.
Speaker 2:Farmer Hank has seven turkeys. Then he buys six more. How many turkeys does Farmer Hank now have? Is one of the turkeys pregnant? One of my kids asked the same thing because it's a good question and it shows that they're using critical thinking. It's irrelevant no, it might be silly to you, but to them it might be an important question that if they don't get it answered, they can't focus and diversions are an important part of learning, and that was one element of it.
Speaker 3:But then also recognizing that, like that, those sorts of dynamics where students ask divergent questions are actually what we want students to do in math class more generally, right, because isn't that where the part like that's the part where we actually start seeing the real life connections and them making sense of the problem and them being able to, like, have any number of divergent thoughts that might get them into a space that allows them to see themselves within the math itself? And so when Melissa's like, no, actually you want those questions, because that means that they're critically thinking, like both of the veteran teachers were able to name that fairly readily, and so that for me, connected so well because I was like oh, so you know, instead of this very rigid way of thinking about how we teach math and how students is supposed to memorize X, y and Z, we want them to make those connections more often, even if things as simple as 13 minus seven.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, I think about the dynamic that you mentioned earlier, like don't smile till December, right, or like teach the test, like these are things that are like very much a part of a lot of teacher education, especially over the last, especially like over the last century. Things are changing a little bit now where there is a little bit more focus on relationship and building connection in some teacher education programs, but I know that there are teachers out there, and new teachers as well, who are like no, like this is the way, this is not to make a mandalorian reference, but this is the way that things have been historically done and these are the things that I need to do.
Speaker 1:If I give them any leeway, right, they're going to take advantage of that and hijack the learning of all the students and we're just going to go down these rabbit holes like, ok, but what if it was a chicken? What if it was a donkey? And like, then we've just turned this into a biology lesson and they're still not getting their testing. And how do you draw the line? How do you set those parameters?
Speaker 3:The best part of what I've seen in my own math teaching was recognizing that we have a responsibility to take those divergent thoughts and kind of reframe them towards the ultimate goal. Like we can always do a thing where we say, ok, let's get distracted, let's get silly, that's all one and good. And then once I've you know, I guess quench that thirst, for lack of a better metaphor I can then say, oh so, now that we have all that in mind, like what does this look like in this context? And then being able to build that into the lesson. So people too often, for example, want their lessons to go minute by minute and instead of thinking about what are some, what is the ultimate goal that I'm trying to achieve with this? And then being able to work backwards from there and then say to ourselves you know what?
Speaker 3:Like, maybe this got distracted with all sorts of like animals within the farm that they were trying to count. But like, if I was able to then say, all right, now that you have all this in mind and reframe them and redirect them towards what we're trying to do, then they're actually all the better for it, as opposed to, you know, constructing the road straight up and down and saying you cannot diverge from this road. Then all of a sudden you find that you find that they ultimately push themselves out of the road all together and don't even want to get to the goal with you because they can't trust you, because they think that you're not going to allow them to do the X, y and Z. So if you know how to reframe permission, then you'll be in real good shape as far as any number of academic goals.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean and I think that does take a quote, unquote mastery or at least like solid foundation in your content.
Speaker 1:Right, so you can take the things that are happening and make those connections right, like this podcast, right, I'm about to come in with, like you know you just talked about, like this in terms of math, but like, if we think about restorative justice, right, and white supremacy culture says like there's only one right way to do things, but that's not necessarily allowing us to address the needs of people as they show up in our spaces.
Speaker 1:Right, you're talking about math instruction, but when we're talking about one right way, one way of being, there are lots of students who are divergent from that. And you know, in the quote, unquote law and order, strictly hierarchical ways, that a lot of classroom instruction has historically been taught. Right, it doesn't leave space for those divergent pathways, not just neurodivergent, but like people show up in different spaces, people show up with all kinds of things going on in their lives into your learning space, right, whether those are your students, your colleagues, whoever, it is right. And if you're just saying like, hey, this is our minute by minute agenda of, like what's supposed to happen and you're not addressing the underlying needs of some of the people in your space, I like you're not going to be very productive, right? And so I know people are often thinking about restorative justice in this way that, or, like you know, these adaptive frameworks of teaching math in this way, like, yes, but then they'll just take advantage of us who, when we're like, catering to their need, right, but how do you respond to that?
Speaker 3:I have never known a great teacher that does this from a critical perspective, that doesn't also think about, I guess, higher notions of knowledge, being able to approach things from a higher perspective, that doesn't try to meet students where they are, but then also build them up higher than they maybe potentially think that they can go, and that's the thing that people need to know is like, all right, let's focus on the math example. When we talk about restorative justice, everybody says, well, if we just get in the circle and we have a moderator, then we have one person talking, the next person talking, then that's all it is. Like that's not restorative justice to me. I like to think a little deeper in terms of the math, because there were several civilizations all across the world that had their own levels of math, right? And so when we talk about restorative justice from that perspective, we are restoring notions that everybody gets to be a mathematician through their own lenses, through multiple ways of doing this math, and so, like we had, for example, the Mayans had 360 days in the calendar.
Speaker 3:How did we end up with 365?
Speaker 3:So they ended up with 360, which is divisible by any number of numbers, right?
Speaker 3:And so, as you think about those factors, you're like okay, great, like that makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 3:We ended up with 365 because a bunch of Rebecca Roman said this is the way we do it, and I need a name, I need a month named after myself, and so you got to make room for that, and so we ended up with 365 plus a quarter that we need to add every single year until the fourth year, and then that's when we get a leap year, which is totally asymmetrical to the way that the Mayans did it and other cultures did it, but we ended up with it, because why supremacy culture?
Speaker 3:What a lot of fun. And so for me, like that's the restoration that I also seek as a mathematician, to stick it to myself, how can we get it so that everybody has input into how we develop math from here on out, not just from a narrow sense of how we do this thing, but from a broader sense of this is the way that people make sense of it, and we can all agree through discussion, through formulation, through the ways that we can agree on something and come up with a consensus about what the answer is going to be, even if we get there through multiple ways.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean at the core of math. Like you want students to be able to like master arithmetic, of course, right, but like apply it to their everyday lives and make sense of the world and help problem solve right, when we're thinking about restorative justice, like, it's very important that you know that, in the framework of a restorative process, like we are asking what happened, who was impacted and how, and how do we adjust the needs in order to make things right, or right as possible? It doesn't always necessarily have to follow a certain script, it doesn't always have to happen within the context of a circle right, it's this way of being. And so, right, we're mastering these frameworks to apply them in whatever ways we can and you know Gregory learns to do that through a number of different ways right, okay, okay.
Speaker 2:Okay, okay, okay, okay, all right, all right, let's go. Hey, oh, oh, oh, oh oh.
Speaker 1:Oh, oh, oh, oh oh. It looks like dance like the way to connect and reward and bring joy into that classroom, build relationships in that classroom happen to be through dance, but that doesn't mean that's the way that you, as an individual teacher, in your context, have to do it right. I think I don't know if it comes before this episode or in an episode later, but, like there's this incident where, you know, jacob is trying to figure out how to relate to his students when they're roasting. Right, and he's not somebody who, like, is very good at roasting, so, like in order to make connections, instead of, like you know, roasting his students for wearing the school uniform, he's like, hey, we're going to roast historical figures to help them figure out. Like, oh, this is how I'm going to remember. You know things about Abraham Lincoln, or you know whoever it was at the time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and actually I'm glad you mentioned that, because A historical figures ought to be roasted. I think we romanticized too many historical figures instead of thinking about the ways that they were complex human beings. Some of them were fairly awful all things considered, but you know they let them legacy you, so we're supposed to honor that. Like don't insult the dead. I'm like, excuse me. Like this person wasn't enslave her. This person was like doing a philanderer. This person has all sorts of children that he had out of the wet life, they had out of the wet life, so on and so forth.
Speaker 3:This person was deleterious to our communities and so being able to name those things, even our heroes are worthy of us having complex discussions about, because that allows us then to say, even as imperfect human beings, we still get to do greater things. So that was a prominent thing for me when it came to Jacob. But then, secondly, you know, I think about how the structure overall, schooling overall, almost pushes people to say this is how you're supposed to behave, this is how you're supposed to go about your business, and so even if Gregory did decide at some point, you know what, like I actually want to open up and be more fun, like we're very fortunate that he had an administrator who was, well, we'll say, supportive of his dancing and so, like that's one element. But he had, you know, ogs who were in the game were saying, oh, we love that for you. We see that you're doing great.
Speaker 3:And of course, you know, principal is supportive in the ways that she is, but there are a plethora of schools out there that are not as supportive. And so if he decides to, you know, just tip over and like, step on that line, then it becomes well, he's just having way too much fun, he's not professional and he should be focusing on the test and so on and so forth. And so we should name those structures head on in terms of the ways that we conduct ourselves, because professionalism is always around and trying to tell us what we can and can't do, even though we are still being professional, in the ways that we express our joy, the way that we express our love with children and our communities more generally.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, those rigid structures really do get in the way of building authentic connection, building relationships and, you know, supporting learning. I'm really reflective of an experience that one of the teachers who went through our summer intensive learning link in the show notes, link in the bio, link in the description reflected to me right when she's like hey, I'm trying to do this within the context of my classroom and I want to do circles, but my administrators are telling me no, right, like you're just giving them a platform to air their grievances, which, like, don't you want to hear feedback from your students about what's going on right? What do you say to teachers who find themselves in positions where their administrators, their leadership, aren't supportive of them showing up as their full selves, integrating their personalities, not just teaching to a test or a rigid curriculum?
Speaker 3:I mean. So something that was handed down to me was the idea of subversive teaching. Right, there was the notion that and by subversive I totally mean like, yes, breaking the rules individually until you conform a collective so that you can actually open yourself up more. So in the first couple of years it was very much about, you know, just quietly going about my business, but then ensuring that, oh yeah, like I have all the standards and, yeah, I'm doing all the content. But then, like, once the door was closed and administrators did what they need to do, then I was able to enact whatever I needed to enact to reach students from a relationship perspective, and so on and so forth.
Speaker 3:And then, once that legacy is cultivated, what I recognize is that students are the best gossipers ever for you, and so when they spread the word out into the community, then they tell their guardians, their community members, their parents, whatever that may look like for them, and then they're able to back you up whenever you do open wide as far as, like the ways that you approach this work.
Speaker 3:And so you don't have to be as subversive as your years go by, because you've already established a notion that, yes, like you're willing to risk it all for your students and you're willing to risk it all for the pedagogy that you've espoused and you're ready to open up for your communities in the ways that, like you do and you know I've been somebody who got down and dirty and said, yo, I'll teach the parents math so you can see what your child is being exposed to and they usually back I don't say I've only had a problem with two parents out of like the thousand plus students who I've ever taught, and that speaks volumes to the level of community building that I had to do to ensure that that that was sustainable.
Speaker 3:And so you're right in saying that there is a clear and present danger when it comes to China, like open up in this way. But what I would say to them is you have to start building it slow. From an individual's perspective, you can start immediately. But once you've started like doing that from a routine perspective, let people talk for you, let people spread out for you and let people show like, let people tell everybody else that like you're doing what needs to be done, and then the administrator has a harder time trying to do things to you, trying to get at you for any number of reasons, and you know they've tried with me but they never succeeded. And good on us for for having a teacher that could still teach kids.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think a lot about a conversation with I that I had with a person named Asha on this restorative justice life our other podcast and you know she ended up losing her job because of some of the things that, like, she was doing in order to advocate for the needs of her students. Right, and like I don't want to dismiss the risk that there is in doing this, I also don't want to encourage people to go into these kinds of subversive teaching methods with a savior mentality. Right, when you're talking about going slow, we want to make sure that, like, yes, like we're going to stand in our values, we're going to stand in our principles, but, like we also need to be responsive to, like, our community's needs. It can't just be like, you know, Jose went and learned all this stuff and now Jose is going to like be this like maverick lone ranger person who, like, is going to change everything. Right, Like that's not what we're advocating for either.
Speaker 1:Right, I think like there's like heavy gene energy, which we're going to get to in a minute, like with something like that. But you know, doing this work with community, right, introducing these frameworks for math, introducing these frameworks for restorative justice right, letting the work speak for itself, continue to practice, continue to be in those routines and allowing people to you know, see that work, invite them into. That is the way to like, slowly coalition build and make change. I know that there are lots of complicating dynamics when it comes to the politics, the bureaucracy of schools and, you know, with such high turnover and people transitioning out of leadership, people transitioning from school to school, those things make things all the more difficult. But if we want to see this change right, it takes people investing in their communities, being invested in these principles and sticking it out for the long haul.
Speaker 3:That's right. None of this work is perfect. I'd also suggest, too, that we definitely are not trying to save children. We're trying to have children save themselves in the way of being sustainable, in the way of allowing students to fully be in their power, because they already have it. It's just a matter of letting that being cultivated and then showing them that, yes, like it's not a coincidence, for example, that over the 15 years that I taught, my students were the most likely to write that petition letter, to go beat those activists speak up to administrators and to teachers who they didn't feel like were actually fully being thoughtful with them, and it's not anything that I particularly did, like yes, fine, okay.
Speaker 3:But there's also the part where I said yo, you are allowed to be your fullest self and you are given permission to do so. You don't have to get it from me per se, but if you feel like you need to be your fullest self in this moment, by all means. And I think, once they saw that example, I don't think they gave themselves anything less than what they felt like they deserved, and so that's a really prominent thing for us to think about too. But it's like we have to become as useless as possible by the end of the year so that they can do what they need to do. Even in my middle school side, I was like, yeah, like I don't need to be that person for you, you can do it all on your own. It's just a matter of giving the schools to do so.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. If you're appreciating this video. Like to help us in the YouTube algorithm? Subscribe so you won't miss the video, and share it with someone to help us further amplify this work. Now back to the show. There are a couple other dynamics at play in this episode. Right, we have Gregory not only experiencing like the struggle in the classroom, but like he's still wrestling with should I be here? Even though people are expecting people, his dad is expecting something different from him.
Speaker 2:I actually applied to a few other principal jobs at other schools. I'm just waiting to hear about it. Why don't you come work at the landscape company with me?
Speaker 3:This school idea. I don't get it. You've been trying to become a principal since you left college.
Speaker 2:Come do a real man's job. Time to grow up, Gregory.
Speaker 1:There is often external pressure about how you should be professionally or you know, even in the context of the classroom, not just from school leadership, from administration. How have you navigated that over your career?
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, that's what I love about this episode too is not just thinking about Gregory, but also about Janine. And, frankly, like everybody, there is like when you know who you are as a person versus who you are as a teacher, then that could be really powerful for you, because you start and this is for me too so, like I thought about like who I was as a person, and until I learned that then it was going to be harder for me to understand who I was as the teacher, because you don't know who you're going to be as a teacher until you're like face, you know face, with 30 faces who could potentially start a revolution against you right then and there, and in one particular instance that's happened Sure, like I got to eat that one.
Speaker 1:But then there were times when I thought, like you don't get away with, just like going over that.
Speaker 3:Okay, fine, fine. So in that time I felt like I thought I had it as far as teaching is concerned. I thought I was good, I thought I was doing what I was supposed to do and like I was. It was my maybe my second, third year in teaching, so I was still formulating what I wanted to accomplish as far as, like my own teaching methods are concerned. But then I came across a class when the dynamics interest student were not very positive, and then for myself I was trying to navigate what that would look like, plus the ever changing leadership and all things that were happening.
Speaker 3:Personally and as a result, because I wasn't thinking about where I was as a person, I didn't feel like my fullest self as a teacher with that group of particular students. So, even as I tried all the methods that I had, I had two other classes and it worked well for your two classes. It didn't work well for this particular class, and so I found myself at the receiving end of a lot of like the things that we find to be negative, which I'm like okay, like I gotta take responsibility, like that's about me, like I'm thinking too, like that's episode two. It is the fault of the teacher and those of us who are good at our craft, we blame ourselves first for when issues happen in our classroom, like that's the thing. And so, over time, like we eventually got some it was, you know, waves and valves, waves, sure, but I found myself at the end thinking I needed to be better as a person and I need to be reflective and stay on that practice so that I can be better for the students.
Speaker 3:And I think, from then on, I never had an issue with full classes, no matter what was happening, no matter what the context was, because I found myself to say, you know what, like there is the person who is out there.
Speaker 3:I'm listening to rap, I'm like going to these different concerts, I'm doing all these great things out there, but then inside the classroom, I had power over students, but I didn't recognize that who I was as a person was like separate from who I was as a teacher, and without trying to find a way to marry the two and assure that they were as close to the people who I wanted to be as possible, then I was going to be at a loss.
Speaker 3:And so that's what I find with Gregory, that's what I find with Janine it's like knowing who you are, Like, and even though things that hurt right, like there are things that really are painful to recognize within ourselves as people and then that can be multiplied when we get into the classroom, because that hurt ends up being a thing, that because part of our pedagogy are. We not even seeing it. We're all this and we see that with so many of our people too, like they think that you know they've resolved whatever that is that they're dealing with at home, but then when they get into the classroom it becomes even wider, like that pain becomes even harder to deal with, and so I would add that too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think there are lots of examples over the course of the show where we see, like, the things that are going on in the outside lives of the teachers impact the way that they show up for their students, right.
Speaker 1:But you know, bringing it back to restorative justice, you know Kay Prandtis and Kailin Boy Swatts and developed these seven core assumptions of restorative justice, built on indigenous traditions and wisdom from lots of different places, and one of them is you know the true self and everyone is good, wise and powerful, and you know that goodness, that wisdom, that power is gonna manifest differently for everyone, right. But how do we bring that into our classrooms in our unique ways, right? If you don't know how that manifests for you as a person in general, it's gonna be really hard for you to manifest that in the classroom because, like, you might feel like, oh, I just have to be like this, don't smile till December, these are the rules, do it because I said so. Person not allowing for connection, right, and that's not what we want. You know Janine is also going through a journey in this episode, right, both in her personal relationship, which I think we'll leave out of this conversation, but you know she's also in this place where she is really trying to connect with her coworkers.
Speaker 2:I told her we're work friends, and now she's doing this. Well, we are work friends. What's the problem? No, no, no, no. We are a family.
Speaker 1:Work. Family is a very, very touchy subject to broach right, because, as much as we want a school community, we want colleagues who care about each other, who are there for each other, who, in some instances, will go above and beyond. It can't be an expectation that everyone is gonna show up with their full selves and devote all of their energy to being like your friend, your everything, within the context of the school building. People should go home, people should have better boundaries, and so, as we were watching the dynamics play out between Janine and Jacob, and then, like Barbara, melissa Gregory, all of them trying to bond with Janine at her at the behest of, like you know, you don't get this chicken if you don't come and participate. What?
Speaker 1:was going on for you.
Speaker 3:It works. I think there's something to be said for the opposite side of that too. So, whereas Gregory is trying to manifest strict, rigid professionalism because his dad doesn't think of his profession as a profession, janine seems to be stuck in the static mode where she everything around her needs to be happy and joyous and there needs to be, like, a happily ever after for her, because that's how she's learned how to navigate life generally. And so, like, teaching is just so much more complicated than that, which is why, like, the OGs are so powerful in this, like they fully recognize just how complicated it is, and yet they are their most authentic selves by allowing that complication to be what it is. So for me, I feel like when I look at Janine, I say okay, like she's struggling right now, not because she wants this to be more rigid, but because she wants this to be super, super happy, and you know you're happy for her. You're like, oh, she's great, like that's dope, and like when hurtful incidents happen, she doesn't have another way to like, reckon with that within herself and then reflect that and ensure that she can continue to strive.
Speaker 3:She's probably one of the teachers that people keep talking about, too, that just leave very quickly because they get burnt out, because they're just so like. It's kind of like going 120 like over a road for X amount of time and then not being able to slow down and take a shift and say, hey, like where am I going with this? And then my emotions too high that I'm not recognizing what's happening around me. And so there is a way to pace ourselves throughout the course of our 200 day school year that allows us to continue to let that joy flow throughout. It's kind of like a slow simmer instead of trying to go with a fast boil. So these are things that are worth recognizing as well, especially as we're thinking about, you know, being more restorative for ourselves. We have to be able to exemplify that for everybody, like allow that full person to show up in the ways that we can.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this manifests across, you know, ginny and storyline in this season and like, even going into next, which I know you haven't watched it just yet but like the word that comes up for me when I see Ginny is like toxic positivity and like you know, we see later, like the way that, like this, like the roots of this for her right, like this is an adaptive behavior to navigate conflict and things that aren't going right in her life.
Speaker 1:Like she's trying to like create happiness and peace, like in like all the spaces that she can. People aren't always receptive to that right and, again, you need to meet people where you're at. Like you can express your needs to folks, right, but they also have the right to say no, right, and you can't try to coerce them into doing your bidding, otherwise it'll just breed resentment. And then you know it's played for laps, like blackmailing people with food in this space, but like you know, one of course, food is a powerful connector and I don't wanna like belittle the power of that, but like the way that Jeanine went about doing that, like ended up backfiring on her when we get the chicken, when you tell a secret.
Speaker 2:My cousin turned on the hit on Bobby Kennedy. Not that kind of secret and we write it down. Jeanine, please just give me the food Guys, you get the wings when you say the things.
Speaker 1:They were like they weren't, her colleagues weren't there with, like, good intentions, right, and so they ended up, you know, clowning her for, like the things that she was doing and she felt even more alienated and so, like even her efforts to make those connections build that quote, unquote, work, family, because she was going at this with 120 miles an hour, like not taking into consideration the needs of other people, turned back on her.
Speaker 1:And, of course, you know, within the arc of a 21 minute sitcom, right, there is some kind of resolution at the end where, you know, gregory affirms her right and like she does make peace with Jacob because of telling her about his boyfriend at the beginning of the show. But you know, there is small learnings that Jeanine is taking over the course of this show and, you know, I think it's a really important lesson for people who are wanting to do good, wanting to build relationships, that, like you can't force people to do this, right, you can invite them, but cramming it down their necks is only going to breed resentment and like gonna look bad on the work that you're trying to put out in the world.
Speaker 3:That's right. And at least we think a lot about, well, two parts. The first is that there's this saying around New York City, but then more generally, about how New Yorkers are, where we're not nice but we're kind. So like being nice presupposes that we're just going to be happy and smiling. I mean, you talk about the toss and positivity. There's a lot of that. But then, you know, being kind means like, what are your acts like? And then what is your? What does the energy tell you about this person?
Speaker 3:And so, you know, we went through a whole era I would say in the mid, I would even say 2010, just around that time when everybody wants to throw an icebreaker at everybody and our professional developments were all about like just putting a whole suite of ice breakers in front of everybody and saying, hey, like we're going to be able to fix teams by ensuring that we build trust very quickly. And you know, once we get these icebreakers together, then everyone's going to be happy and we're going to have a joyous, I guess, workspace. And then, of course, when that didn't happen, then people said, well, let's just go right back to testing, because that's what works for everybody and that's not what we're trying to do here. And secondly, yes, like there is something to be said for, like people actually reading Janine and saying you know what? Like we were doing this not just for the chicken, but because we know that you're trying your hardest but you're really not taken into consideration, that we're all each some of us have seen this before and those of us who haven't, we're not in the mood right now and there are things that we need to withhold right now because we can't fully express what we need to say to you about any number of things that we see about you, and that's why I think that Jacob Peace was so evident of this notion that you know, when you have a work friend, it happens with every school, right.
Speaker 3:Like there are things about us that you know we try not to like. Let everybody see, even though we want to be our fullest person in the school, we recognize that the structure overall is sometimes really that it's serious to our own personhood, and so being able to have that deep, deep trust means that it's going to take a little while. It's not going to be just a couple of icebreakers and you know, danny's chicken, it's going to be like oh, I want to be able to read you. I want to be able to know that I can trust you with my heart as well as my head. I want to be able to spend time outside of this structure that's telling us what to do with how to do it before we can actually build something together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, the icebreakers and the chicken is like hey, do you? Can you do arithmetic right Instead of like? Do you understand the concepts behind this, right? Can you apply this critically, right? That's not to again talk down on providing food for people as a way to connect. It's not to talk down on icebreakers as a way to build relationships, but again, being attentive to the needs of people right in front of you and being responsive to those, while still, you know, advocating for yourself, is what all of this restorative way of being about. How are we building, strengthening and, of course, repairing relationships to this place where we're in equity and trust right? Both with colleagues, both the students, families, all of it? Oh, my goodness, so much good, before we start to transition out anything else that you want to highlight.
Speaker 3:I would just like to highlight that there is definitely a movement right now towards hiring more male teachers of color, specifically back male teachers, but any number of male teachers of color, which I believe is at around two, three percent of the profession, and there is something to be said for how we could become more expansive with notions of maleness to ensure that, like everyone feels like they belong in the school.
Speaker 3:Noting that Gregory's character is supposed to be the prototypical black male teacher, the one who comes in and aspires to be a principal, and that's worth complicating just a bit, because we do have the creative profession that allows for everybody to feel that they could be in their fullest selves and ensure that we can talk about teaching profession more expansively so that everyone feels like they're getting what they need professionally as well as personally about this thing, because it's not just about, like, whether or not his father disapproves of what they're doing this. What is his impact on children? What is his pedagogy speaking to when it comes to the children that are in front of him and in his charge? And then, should he eventually become a principal, what has he learned from his OGs, who have been asked to both be women, to be able to say, hey, like I can actually do this whole thing better and think about this whole experience better for everybody. I want to see him look leaving behind. So things to note here too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, we get, definitely get to see that growth and trajectory over the seasons. You've heard from us. Now we want to hear from you. Drop your restorative justice reflections in the comments and if you want to join a live community conversation about our restorative justice lessons from Abba Elementary, join us for a live event on Monday, july 31. Link with more info in the description. As we transition out, I like to ask a couple questions of everyone who comes on this podcast so you get to pitch to Quinta, and the writers of Abba Elementary right now cast Jose Vilsen as a character on this show. Who would you be? What role would you want to play?
Speaker 3:I would like to play the angry substitute we need the angry substitute somewhere in there and I'm appreciative of so like that would be a complete contrast to who I was for the majority of my tenure. But I would love to be cast as somebody who comes in and super upset and doesn't understand why he's there anyway. And then, of course, like the arc would be well, you know, once the doors close, like you, the kids mysteriously just behave for him Like there's just something about it, and then he opens the door again and he's angry and he's huffy, puffy. And then do the people know that? Like he's been through any number of schools throughout Philadelphia and this has been his experiences, so he's trying to navigate what that looks like and then eventually say, okay, well, you know, I've done my time, I'm angry and I'm just going to go to the next school, yada, yada.
Speaker 3:But then the kids are like go get him, go get him, he's great, and so you know things that would be pretty awesome.
Speaker 1:Oh man, you know, what was coming up for me is like key and peel vibes of substitute teacher. I could see that, but like giving that person giving that person a redemption arc would be really, really beautiful. So, jack Wellin, balaki and a Iran, you know we love you. Oh man, beautiful, beautiful. Well, you know you mentioned like all the work that you're doing. Tell people how you can. They can support you and your work in the ways that you want to be supported.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much for that. First, of course, I am the Jose Wilson on any and all social media platforms. The Jose Wilson comm is my platform, blogging so on and so forth but of course, I am the executive director of edu color, and so edu color MVMT is on Instagram, facebook and Twitter for the time being and of course, as we grow into a full nonprofit, then we'll be expanding into more spaces. But if you'd like to join the movement, that's where we're at edu color MVMT. And, of course, we're super happy to be part of any platform or any number of movements that also espouse racial justice in the ways that they do. So let's keep it going.
Speaker 1:Beautiful and, of course, all the links to connect with Jose and his work are below. Again, jose, thank you so much for sharing the wisdom, the stories, the experiences. We'll be back breaking down the next episode of Ava Elementary very soon. Until then, take care.
