Amplify RJ (Restorative Justice)
Restorative Justice is often framed as an alternative to punishment in criminal legal and education settings, and but that’s only part of the story. Join host David Ryan Barcega Castro-Harris to learn how to apply Restorative Justice philosophy, practices, and values in your everyday life.
Amplify RJ (Restorative Justice)
Abbott Elementary S1E1 "Pilot" w/ Claudine Miles (Restorative Justice Reflections)
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Heyo, david here. Restored of Justice Reflections was created as a video first medium because we're including video clips from the shows we're talking about. You can still hear our full conversation here with the audio from the clip, but for the full experience and to see our beautiful faces, head over to our YouTube page link below. If you're only going podcasts or your thing, please bear with the mentions of video and clips and use your imagination. Enjoy.
Speaker 2:Jamal, what are you doing? I had to go, and the toilets don't work. The rug was playing B.
Speaker 1:Welcome to Restored of Justice Reflections. I'm your host, David Ryan by Sega Castro Harris All five names for all the ancestors. And today I'm here with Claudine Miles to dive into the restorative themes or lack thereof in the very first episode of ABC's hit show, Ava Elementary, The Pilot. Our conversation today is not to critique the story or production choices of the creators, but we will highlight how restorative justice could apply to situations like new teachers adapting to a new school, trying to force apologies in the classroom, or when a teacher snaps and ends up getting violent with the student. Hopefully this will give you some insight into applying restorative justice ways of being inside and out of the classroom.
Speaker 1:If you want a deeper look into applying restorative justice to your everyday life, join our inner circle to connect with other RJ-minded folks and get bonus content. If you want to deepen your practice, check out our courses. And if you want to see this work in your school or organization, invite us for coaching your training so we can help you implement this way of being into your community. Of course links to everything in the description. Now let's get to it. Welcome, Claudine. So excited to have this conversation with you on this first episode of this series. How are you?
Speaker 3:I'm so good. I'm super excited to be here.
Speaker 1:I was really excited to have you as somebody who was the first person having this conversation with me, both because of your background in the classroom background with restorative justice, but also because of you know, three years ago you were one of the first people I connected with on the Instagrams doing restorative justice work, so you know, to launch this new initiative couldn't think of a better person. I gave a little bit of context to who you are, but tell the people what you want them to know about you.
Speaker 3:Sure And shout out to you for all of the growth and all of the things. It's amazing. My name again is Claudine Miles. I call myself a forever educator. I started teaching over almost 20 years ago, became a school leader and then led restorative practice initiatives within my school for years and really just loved that work, and so, in 2018, launched Restore More as a means to help other organizations do this work deeply, meaningfully, intentionally and well in a culturally responsive way, and we've been really fortunate to work with schools across the country, outside the US, and just really grow our learning, our skills, grow the skills of others and do it in a way that still feels restorative and authentic to us. So that's me in a nutshell, and just excited to be here today with you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i mean, i know it's exciting just to connect, but you know we're here to talk about Abba Elementary. What has the show meant to you as a viewer, as somebody who is a forever educator, someone who has experienced education as a student, as a parent of a student, What has the show meant to you?
Speaker 3:I think it's really authentic, but I also think they do a beautiful job of like infusing comedy Into it, because there are many documentaries and movies that do a good job of showing what schools look like authentically. But the comedic thread throughout, i think, teases on a lot of issues in a way that makes it more palatable for, like, the non-teacher to digest and understand. Like, oh, most classrooms don't have rugs. Rugs are really expensive and they're hard to get. Yes, this is a common teacher concern, so I love that they are bringing up these teacher issues in a way that makes it really easy for non-teachers to understand.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, especially in the times that we're now on like, not necessarily that the pandemic is over, but, you know, during 2020, 2021, right The weight of what teachers were doing was felt by everyone so much, especially people who were parents or people who were caregivers, right, and so to see this depicted rather beautifully has been something that I've really appreciated, and it's given us a lot of connection points to talk about restorative justice. You know you talked a little bit about, you know your journey into going from a teacher to a school leader, to a restorative justice practitioner. I'm curious what the aha moment for restorative justice was for you in that journey.
Speaker 3:I think what's interesting is that I didn't have the aha moment. I had the oh. Someone literally nudged me off a cliff, and by somebody I mean my boss. So my boss was like I signed you up for this training, you're going to go, and I was like I don't want to go to this training. I need to be in the school with my children, doing things with my children. I was definitely that leader that needed to be there at all times and loved being in the space with children and staff.
Speaker 3:However, I begrudgingly went to the training and then I realized like, oh, I already do this. This is just naturally a lot of who I am. There are some structures that I need, some lingo that I need, but a lot of this work is inherent to who I am and the way in which I kind of govern and have led the people that I've managed, the classrooms that I've managed, And so I always tease that individual now. So I'm like, oh, look at you starting this trajectory from a whole new life. You knew what I needed before I did. But that was my big aha moment in that understanding what I was maybe doing individually in my classroom or individually at that time in my office with students who were struggling behaviorally, socially. That needed to be taught, That needed to be explicit And there needed to be systems for the school to be able to transition from really punitive punishments to restorative consequences that were more logical.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, definitely, and we see lots of examples of how some of those things like aren't necessarily manifesting at the elementary. So let's get into it. The very first episode is the pilot We open on Janine in her classroom dealing with the students. Pretty soon after, we see another new teacher being fired for kicking a student, with Gregory who we'll talk about in future episodes of this podcast being hired as her temporary assistant. After initial pushback, ava sends a request for more money to purchase supplies, including rugs for the classroom, but she wastes the money on a new school sign. Janine files a complaint with the superintendent, but the email is redirected to Ava, who disrespects her in front of the entire school staff. And then Barbara, jacob and Melissa come to Janine's offense and realize that they're on their own and figure out ways to acquire several rugs for the teachers. It's a really great intro to the dynamics of this school and the things that they're facing. But what immediately stood out for you when you were watching this very first episode of Avid Elementary?
Speaker 3:I mean, i think there were so many things, but one of the things that just made me laugh right out the gate in the first 30 seconds Ow, miss Teens.
Speaker 2:Andrew hit me. Andrew apologize. One, two, three, four. I'm Janine Teens. I've been teaching second grade here at Avid Elementary for a year, now Eight nine. As a product of the Philadelphia school system, i'm proud to say I survived and now teach here today.
Speaker 3:And that moment to me was so authentic because I hear and see that a lot in schools And I know that if she had applied a restorative strategy right there, she could have saved her time. She could have saved her energy. Jimmy wouldn't have had to have a little baby meltdown in that case And it probably would have been really as simple as walking over there, getting quiet and asking what happened first, versus assuming that Jimmy was wrong and forcing him to publicly apologize. And now you've lost your power in front of these children As you count down and Jimmy is playing the mess out of you, not giving you what you're demanding.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's this, like you're saying. From the very first moments, i was like, oh my gosh, what is happening? And also this is exactly what is happening within the context of schools all the time. The forced apology without knowing what is going on in the situation is something that a lot of people find themselves trying to do in efforts to like, hey, we're learning, apologize and move on, but you're not necessarily addressing what's going on underneath the surface. Asking the question what happened Or what's going on Is such a key thing, not what did you do, not? who's fighting? Why are you fighting? What happened? allowing people the time and space to express what happened from their perspective? OK, you didn't see what was going on right before someone got smacked right. It might have been like maybe not justifiable, but understandable right From a kid perspective.
Speaker 1:Right, and so making sure that we are able to apply these practices in our everyday lives, both as individuals moving throughout the world and as teachers, is something that we're going to see lots of opportunities to think about through the context of this episode, and this show is a whole, so very excited to have these conversations. If you're appreciating this video, like to help us in the YouTube algorithm, subscribe so you won't miss the video, and share it with someone to help us further amplify this work. Now back to the show.
Speaker 2:The future track record here isn't great, but ultimately we are passionate and capable of doing this job. Jenny, Miss Worcestershire's Kate Rijon and everyone's in the hallway going crazy What.
Speaker 4:All right, all right, calm down. Calm down What happened.
Speaker 2:He hit me first. Liar, i'm a liar, i'm the liar.
Speaker 4:I wonder if she tried counting.
Speaker 1:Over the course of your career, you know Abba Elementary is a heightened show, but like things like this happen. You've witnessed it. How do you respond to a situation like that? Right, we don't know the dynamics of what exactly happened between the teacher and the student on the show, but right, there are real things going on underneath the surface. How do you, as a school leader, navigate something like that?
Speaker 3:Typically if there's a report of an adult harming a child, you know, the first thing that we want to do is potentially separate if they're in the same space to ensure safety of both parties. We would want to launch a formal investigation while respecting the privacy of both parties. So there is some extensive work that kind of goes into it contacting parents, talking to other students. If there is an opportunity to catch any video footage, we would include that. So within like 24 to 48 hours, we would have to move very swiftly to be able to investigate what happened, reach some understanding of course, talk with both parties, get their perspectives and then align to policy and make decisions that are in the best interests of the children.
Speaker 1:Right, you know, when we think about doing work that is restorative in the context of schools, right, the policies that are on the books, the ways that schools are constructed, aren't always necessarily conducive to giving the time and the resources to making sure you know people are fully getting what they need.
Speaker 1:Right, we don't know the dynamics that went on between the student and teacher on the show, right, and that's okay, it's a TV show. We don't expect that in a 21 minute sitcom. But when we think about, you know, the limitations of, you know, school policy, the limitations of, like, societal pressure to be like this person did, like a really f-ed up thing, get them out of here. Like that might end up being the right call. Like the result of that might end up being the right call. That teacher we actually get to see in season two, like doing better in a different school context, and you know good for them. But what if we were able to figure out a way to address the needs of the student and that teacher without it resulting in an immediate firing? Right, of course we have Ava as a principal, who's not necessarily equipped to be that way. What are some ways that you imagine something like that happening a little bit more restoratively than manifested here.
Speaker 3:Don't even need to imagine. I have both scenarios. So there was a time where it happened pre us, like as a school transitioning to a restorative school, and it was exactly as Ava played out right That teacher was dismissed. They also did go on to continue their teaching career down the line and they were very successful. Fast forward now we're a restorative school.
Speaker 3:A situation happens with the teacher and a student and we call the parent, immediately, inform them. We still conduct the investigation, but we ask if the parent would be open to repairing the harm through a restorative practice circle. And they're open. They want to come in and they want to be involved. They want to sit down and understand what caused the teacher to get to the point where they grabbed the student's arm and left a couple of like nail marks. And what we ended up uncovering was that this parent and teacher had a great relationship and the parent deeply trusted the teacher And so they assumed the best in that moment. And I want to understand what led you to this point. And through this restorative circle, the teacher got a consequence Because, again, sometimes there are policies that govern education and leadership and we are bound to those policies.
Speaker 3:However, it did not result in a firing. The parent felt heard value, that they were able to express their point. The teacher apologized for the harm caused. The student and parent accepted the apology and then there were agreements put in place to ensure that moving forward, there was a better, healthier relationship, and even things in place like if the student did struggle and or escalate. How do we separate these two so that we're not triggering any reoccurrences of what did happen? So it was just interesting to see how we handled it you know just a few years back and then how we handled it once we became a restorative space.
Speaker 1:What was the difference between how you handled it initially and you handled the second situation?
Speaker 3:We were open to bringing all the parties together where.
Speaker 4:I feel like before, like that was a no, no, it was like oh, no, no, don't bring them together, because they just were in conflict, keep them apart, separate everyone.
Speaker 3:But it also created this environment where people were like really tense. There wasn't an avenue to repair the harm after any type of incident. It was like you did your thing, you got your consequence come back or go away, in some cases, right After this transition. For us as a school, it created space for people to be humanized, because people make mistakes. It created space for people to walk back from those mistakes, which we all need, and it created space for like healing and forgiveness, and I don't know that that would have happened in our school had we not utilized like restorative practices. We just didn't have that. We didn't have the time, i don't think we valued it in the same way And there weren't structures to support that. So it was just fundamentally different and a better outcome.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, you said the thing like we don't have time, right? And that's the thing that many people say when we are faced with like hey, we want to implement this new thing, we need to build people's capacity, we need to build in time for these processes to happen. You didn't magically get you know four more hours in a in a school day to make it happen. Where did the time come from?
Speaker 3:A lot of it was just being strategic. You know, when you do things that you've always done, you can easily get stuck in that mode of thinking. But when we literally said we're no longer going to suspend kids for these behaviors because we probably suspended kids for like 100 behaviors And we said we're only going to suspend kids for these seven things That fundamentally changed our mindset And we had to figure out, well, what's going to have to change now, because they're going to still exhibit certain behaviors.
Speaker 3:So I think the biggest thing was like changing our mindset, first making the time, but then also like very practically somebody led that work. That somebody was me, i was the Dean of restorative practices. Like I see a lot of schools struggling to implement this well because they don't have someone leading the charge to train folks, to invest them, to rally them, to manage the systems. They love to give this role to like somebody who already has three jobs, and then we see people experience human realities and burn out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know what that comes down to is like resource allocation right That you talked about. Like assigning like a full time person to doing that, like that's someone's time, that's money, right, that is. And the other thing that I love that you said, like when we talk about like we're not going to suspend kids for like these hundred things, like there are some things that like we can't get away from because of school policy that like are just, or district policy that are just things that like require suspension and they're a restorative way to bring people back. But like not, it's not about like, just like okay, let them run wild and free, and you know that's super permissive, that's neglectful, that's causing more harm, right, what are the ways that we're actually going to address these problems? figure out the root causes and move forward together in relationship in a good way. That's what doing restorative justice looks like.
Speaker 1:You know, building capacity for you know individual teachers, individual staff, people to practice, but also having systems and structures that are going to be able to support them, being able to take the time to both learn and to both learn and like execute and have those kinds of conversations, engage in those kinds of processes, and it's not just limited to conflict resolution. It's not just limited to addressing harm. There are lots of ways that we're proactively building and strengthening relationships. Some of that means attending to the needs of the people in our community, like getting rugs, or being responsive to people's emails, being respectful of communication, and that's not something that Ava necessarily exhibited at all within the context of this episode. Right, jeanine, as she writes the request, ava misuses the funds. Jeanine makes the complaint. Ava calls her out her name in front of everybody.
Speaker 4:I learned that someone here doesn't respect me. But it's not about me, because if you don't respect me, how can you respect this school? You can't. It's mathematically impossible. Well, it's not important. We're going to make this a group matter. It's not single any one person out. Let's try and exercise what we say, whatever we want, out loud to each other, no matter how critical. It'll be fun. Let's start with Jeanine. Jeanine, yes, you're pushy, squeaky and annoying, excuse me. No, it's not bad. No, we're sharing, with the goal of making us all better.
Speaker 1:Not at all restorative And I know, like Ava, the character is a little bit heightened And I know that there are some principles across our schooling landscape that do exhibit some of those behaviors. When you saw this, what came up for you restoratively, when Ava was doing the things that she was doing?
Speaker 3:I was like this is just going to blow up into a big water cooler, gossipy, messy situation And like deeply impact the staff culture and create more divide. But it's very much like in line with the storyline of the show. I think in my head I was like this would just would have been a really good opportunity for you to approach this restoratively Again. I would have called Jeanine into my office and been like Jeanine I got this email that came to me from the superintendent. Let me know, let's talk about what happened. How did that happen? But that wouldn't have fit the character arc. But I do think those things happen in leadership. Those things happen in school. Like anytime you're spending an abundance of time with folks, conflict will happen, just like joyous moments will happen. A variety of other types of moments will happen. You're going to have conflict, i think. In schools, though, when we don't address the conflict initially and immediately, it brews and it stues and it literally becomes like coffee pot water cooler talk, and it can create a lot of harm professionally between folks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and like you know when you're talking about, like the time we're brewing and stewing and like not allowing people to like say what they need to say to each other and try to move forward. Right, that's a, that's also a time thing, that's also a resource allocation, like, oh, like they're fine They're doing their teaching. Oh, they're fine, they're doing their principal thing. Like we're just going to like cross our fingers and hope for the best. And I've seen this time and again happen with people in schools. Like, whether it's like for like you're not this actually comes up in the show like you used up all the copy paper and like didn't refill it. Right, people hold grudges for for years over things like that. Right, people hold grudges for like you know, hey, you walked your students by my classroom in a really loud manner. Right, like, where are we finding the time to like have those conversations, to both like express our grievances, express the things that, like we want to see change, but also find ways to connect with each other as humans. So it's easier for us to have those conversations right. If something like that happened between Barb and Melissa in the show, like they would go right to each other and be like you know let's hash this out Ava's created this dynamic where she she sees herself as above everyone else, above critique, above approach, and so if anyone challenges her, you know, especially Janine and her, i'll label it over eager.
Speaker 1:Some people might say approach to you know, solving problems. Like you know, we understand. You know the character that Ava is on the show. Like we understand, like that's not something that was possible And we want to see that kind of growth.
Speaker 1:You know we have a couple of seasons of show to explore all of those storylines but really it is about finding time to build those relationships. You know the process of checking in with folks is not just about like touchy, feely, like how are you patting people on the back. It's also about like proactively addressing needs. If you're able to identify needs before they become crises right, you are preventing yourself from having to have repair of harm or like repair of conflict circles, conversations, processes later down the line. So the time allocation to all of this is so important Not very hopeful for us seeing that very soon in the near future of Ava Elementary, but we are where we are. The end of the episode brings us with Melissa figuring out a way to acquire some rugs. We see veteran teacher Savvy really come through, as you saw this And the other ways that Heryn Barb interacted with the younger teachers in this episode. What came up for you?
Speaker 3:It just made me think of my early years in the classroom. I remember joining my school staff and hearing the rumblings about the veteran teachers and how amazing they were. We had lengthy planning periods. We were super fortunate And I would use those opportunities to go sit in the classrooms of teachers that I admired and literally sit like this because there was so much richness to learn.
Speaker 3:And I feel like we see this playing out in episode one, where you've got the new teachers seemingly struggling definitely struggling, and not really understanding what's happening and why the veteran teachers are having so much more success. And they keep talking about it as if it's this mystical magic. Like what are they doing? And I just remember feeling like that deeply feeling like that Like how are they orchestrating this phenomenal scene of learning and deep community?
Speaker 3:And I think it's easy to pit new teachers against veteran teachers because we can be overzealous, because we can be green, because we think everything's solvable.
Speaker 3:But I think if schools are thinking about how do we make our staff a restorative, well-intentioned group of folks that keep this work at the core of their culture, then we're doing things with one another, and so I just want to offer up one thing that was done in my early years of being in the classroom.
Speaker 3:We had what was called like a compadre And they just linked us with a veteran teacher, but it allowed me to have an access point to a misbarb. That didn't make it seem as creepy or stalker-ish because that's how Janine is coming off like a straight stalker But it was totally appropriate for me to go sit in my compadre's room and observe and ask questions and be curious And till this day, like some 20 odd years later, we still have a great relationship, we still work together, i still learn from him and he still learns from me or, like now, learns from me. And I think there's so much beauty when we can create restorative culture, not just with kids but with staff and parents and like our larger community, because it helps us all be better people And honestly, in my case, like it made me a better teacher a lot faster.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i mean and of course, ava is not the person who's going to set that up. We see the relationship dynamic between Janine and Barb and Melissa and all the teachers continue to grow. But that is the end of season one, episode one the pilot of Ava Elementary. Now you've heard from us. Now we want to hear from you. Drop your restorative justice reflections from this episode in the comments And if you want to be a part of a live community conversation about this show, we're hosting a live event on July 31st unpacking restorative justice lessons from Ava Elementary. Link down below. Hope to see you there. Before we go, we always ask these questions. If you had the ear of the show runners of Quinta, everyone pitch yourself as a character on Ava Elementary and what would your story arc be?
Speaker 3:I would want to be, i guess, the teacher that I was like the crazy teacher that was willing to literally do whatever it took. So if that meant like dressing up in costume for my kids, coming up with chance, cooking breakfast, taking walking field trips, like, i think, someone that would compliment Janine but would also be doing it in this unique way, and then also part of my arc would be like they are based in Philly And so there's a very distinct Philly culture And I would be integrating this space with a uniquely different culture.
Speaker 4:That's like nothing like the kids in, like playing on that clash, because that was definitely a part of my experience.
Speaker 3:I am a northern girl throwing through and I came to the deep south and I'm like yo, it's time to learn. And the kids were like she's aggressive and mean and she's scaring me. So I think if we like, tease that out and played with that. It would be kind of fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely, definitely. I'm thinking about all the ways that that could manifest and the ways that the show has. We have, you know, 30 plus episodes at this point of.
