Amplify RJ (Restorative Justice)
Restorative Justice is often framed as an alternative to punishment in criminal legal and education settings, and but that’s only part of the story. Join host David Ryan Barcega Castro-Harris to learn how to apply Restorative Justice philosophy, practices, and values in your everyday life.
Amplify RJ (Restorative Justice)
Embracing Fear and Self-Doubt: Ashley Ellis's Transformative Journey through Restorative Justice (Restorative Re-Air)
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Have you ever wondered what it's like to embrace self-empowerment and create transformation through the restorative justice journey? Ashley Shanice Ellis, a black, queer woman from the West side of Chicago shares her enlightening journey of self-discovery. She takes us on an emotional rollercoaster as she navigates her transition onto an online platform, facing fears and self-doubt, and yet, with determination and courage, she finds her way back into the work she's passionate about.
Ashley recounts an inspiring story of how a moment of affirmation from a stranger sparked a flame within her, shaping her career trajectory and personal identity. Her work in introducing restorative justice and peacemaking circles to probationers in Chicago broke down walls, and built trust and relationships. But as she moved to New York City with no family or friends, Ashley was faced with the daunting task of building a community from scratch. Hear about her fearless journey into vulnerability, trust, and community building in a new city.
In the final part of our discussion, Ashley explores her impactful work with youth in the juvenile justice system, underlining the importance of creating a safe space and a sense of community for them. She shares her vision of reimagining Breed Circles for her sisters, her upcoming projects, and the importance of rest in her work. Tune in to unlock the secret of how Ashley Shanice Ellis transforms lives with her unique approach to restorative justice. This episode is a testament to the power of resilience, affirmation, and transformative activism.
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Embodying Restorative Justice and Personal Identity
DavidWelcome to this Restorative Justice Life . I'm your host , david Ryan , vasega , castro-harris All five names for all the ancestors And on this podcast I speak with RJ practitioners , circlekeepers and others doing restorative work about how they embody this way of being in their personal and professional lives . This month , as we're celebrating pride , we're highlighting conversations from the archives featuring RJ practitioners who are proudly part of the LGBTQIA Plus community . We do this work to build a more just and equitable world for everyone , including our queer and trans community members , who are experiencing intense interpersonal , institutional and structural violence . Amplify RJ and the RJ movement as a whole wouldn't be where it is without you , so please know that we celebrate you as you are . We stand with you and appreciate all your contributions to our work .
DavidWhile queerness is an important part of Ashley's intersectional identity , this conversation covers multiple facets of doing restorative justice work . As always , you can find all the ways to get plugged into the Amplify RJ community , take advantage of learning opportunities or bring RJ to your school , organization or community at the links in the show notes below . Without further ado , let's get into it . Welcome , ashley . Who are you ?
AshleyI am Ashley Shanice Ellis .
DavidWho are you ?
AshleyI am the daughter of baby George Ellis Sr and Lizzie Mae Jenkins and the granddaughter of Bessie , Beatrice and Haddie Maudet .
DavidWho are you ?
AshleyI am the life partner and wife to Cornetisha . I am baby sister to Bailey and Therro . I'm a sister and friend and mentor to many .
DavidAre you ?
AshleyI am a warrior , i am love and action , i am a peacekeeper and a condor with a feeling for you .
DavidWho are you ?
AshleyI am a black girl , a queer black girl from the west side of Chicago who learned that if you gave her a place to stand , she could conquer the world .
DavidWho are you ?
AshleyI am the prayers personified of my ancestors . I am the dream of my mother and my community . I am hope .
DavidAnd finally , who are you ?
AshleyI am me . I am the promise that God created me to be in the world .
DavidThank you for introducing yourself . You took that to a level that nobody else has gone to yet . Even one of your answers are like boom boom , boom , boom , boom . That's it . I hope we touch on a lot of that in our conversation today . I'm curious how that felt . Sharing .
AshleyAt this particular point in my life it felt really good because , in full transparency , i called you a couple of weeks ago and that was what was on my heart . You were asking me these questions and you challenged me in them too Lovingly challenged me in them . So to stand here and breathe my way through that and to powerfully believe it , it made me feel like , yeah , i am , i am , i am that , i am all those things .
DavidYeah , i mean , the reason that we open a podcast with that is so folks get to introduce themselves beyond job titles , right , because that's so often where we categorize people . But it's also really a powerful exercise to think about for yourself . Who are you ? Who do you believe yourself to be ? Not who the world tells you you are Like . Who really are you . So thank you for your transparency , your vulnerability , how are you I ?
Ashleywas going to ask that too , because I just thought about it like knowing who I am in these moments especially , like the world tries to create this narrative for who I need to be , and I think people have this idea about who I need to be , and if I don't know that for myself , then I will just be caught up in their imaginations of me and be crushed by it , because I'm not living in my full self .
AshleyAnd also , remembering and being reminded about who I am allows me to stand in my power around things that I doubt sometimes that I have the ability to do . And when I remind myself of who I am and who's I am and where I come from , then I'm reminded that I'm enough , that I am able , and that when I walk in the faith of those who come before me and the prayers of those who come before me , they're like I can do whatever it is that I want to do and whatever it is that I need to do . And so that has been the practice of naming myself , and knowing who I am has really strengthened me in that way and in the time where I was doubting myself a lot .
DavidYeah , what was one of those times ?
Restorative Justice Journey and Transition
AshleyIn this work , in the work of restorative justice . You know like I was , you know , before COVID shut everything down , you know I was really doing a lot of , you know , training , consulting , coaching , working with young people . Every day of the week I'm gathering , and I loved it . And when things shifted , i didn't think that , in full transparency , i resisted stepping into the online platform because I couldn't imagine yet how to do it , how to bring circles to squares , to zoom to this thing where I couldn't see physically and being , feel people , and I kept telling myself like , and also spirit was like no , it's okay to arrest right now , to not feel the void , and so that was a piece of it . But as I was making my way back to it , i realized that there was a balance in spirit telling me to rest and also in wanting to come back .
AshleyI was . I didn't feel like I was enough . I didn't feel like what I had was enough to bring to the online platform . Maybe there was only something special that happened when I was in person with people And maybe that wouldn't translate online because I lack something , or I didn't know how to do something or have conversations on this platform in a way that you do when you're present with people , and so there was this voice in the background that was creating these excuses , but it was also saying that , like , you're not enough , you don't really have what it takes . Just let other people do that , move out the way , and other people do it , and so that was one of those times , and I recently had to be reminded and to remember for myself about who I am , to show up fully in this work and to give my best to those who I walk alongside , who I co-journey with , who I share these experiences with .
DavidYeah , What does that look like for you right now ?
AshleyRight now it's , you know , i'm going at my own pace But it looks like cultivating small circles and community around me , and so I have some sisters who , through tragedy and triumph , has , you know , gathered around me and we create space using , you know , and he'll , together , using the work of peacemaking in the circles . But also I've just recently got back into some work that I'm doing in a contract with , like the DOE and some training , department of Education , department of Education , and some trainings with some other organizations , and so , you know , i'm able to move at my own pace and to say yes when my spirit says yes and no when it says no , and slowly but surely make my way back , and I don't know if I'm fully going to be fully integrated back at the same pace as I was moving before , but definitely showing up , you know , stronger than ever since everything since KI Scanner .
DavidYeah , for sure You were going at a pretty you know a pretty a pretty rapid pace . For those of you who aren't watching us , i did some running movements with my body . You and I met probably four or five years ago when you were in the middle of , you know , working with a nonprofit and doing your own consulting on the side and transitioning to that . But I want to go back before you knew the word restorative justice , i think one of the things that's common for people who come on this podcast . We've been doing restorative justice work before we knew what the words were . So , from your perspective , how did you start in this work ?
AshleyUm , before . So before I got here , i I recognized that , So I was introduced to it in 2010 , 2011 . Time misses me sometime , but before that I recognized like , so I used to run with . I always was surrounded by friends , like I'm one of those people . Yeah , i just always was surrounded by friends . But I had this group of friends at the high school and it was really interesting because I was somebody who kind of got along with everybody and my friends were like we . They matured , we've all matured .
AshleyBut at that time , um , i ran with some girls that were like some fighters , some cousins like they , you know , we was all from the West side and they , you know , they was doing what they needed to do to survive . But it was interesting because , like they would be , i played basketball and like they would be into , like other people that I was low key , like friends with , and I was always this person in like the middle , trying to be like nah , like less , not , they didn't listen to me , it didn't matter , but I always found myself in the midst of um , trying to like , keep peace . You know , i grew up in a household where , like , my mom and my dad were always in conflict And I think , on the lowest of keys , like trying to protect them and myself and us . That like and not in the way where it was violent towards me , but it was just like always conflict in the house , um , i was always trying to find ways to smooth things over um , to make like it didn't matter who was right or wrong um , but to make people feel whole and to feel good um , however I can . And so I think that , like that was some of the ways that , like , even as a young person , i was just showing up in the world that way , um and so when I was introduced to it , um as a training , someone um sent me to a training for organization I was working with and I was introduced to Cheryl Graves and Pamela Purdy , um , and I sat in that four day training and I think I was in , i was the youngest person in the room um , and I think I was with , like it was all women And , if I'm not mistaken , these were like women who , like were mothers and also like probation officers , um , who were coming together to to learn how to , you know , create peace in those communities
The Impact of Black Women's Encouragement
Ashley.
AshleyAnd it was so powerful And I didn't know all of what I would do with the information and the practice that I was given at the time . Um , i knew I wanted to work with young people , but this lit a little flame under me and I was like , wow , i can , i can do this . And , um , there was a woman at the end of the training who came up to me and she was like you can be doing this work . I can see you And I'm like you're going to be , you're going to be doing this work for your life And I didn't know what to take make of that at the time .
AshleyUm , below and behold , and I couldn't see that at the time , um , but it was definitely something . Um , you know , i'm here now , almost 10 years later , standing in this work , and I love it And it has shifted even more um , who I am today . Um , and how I get to show up in the world , um , as a peacekeeper , as a warrior , as a kinder with a feeling , um , you know , as a curator of holding space for folks to heal , like it has really shifted me in a way that I yeah , i just show up .
DavidSo yeah , how , um , how impactful was it for someone in that moment , just when you learn this work , to say like Oh no , you got it , you got it , this is you .
AshleyYou know , um , i often say this and , but so , oh , wow . Now something divine shows up in my life , through the presence of Black One in particular , that affirms me on my journey in ways that I wasn't looking for , but it also becomes a guide . So this she did , that I was 20 . I had to be about the 2000 , 2011 . Yeah , i was , i was 21 . And when she said that to me , like I couldn't see it , but I was like this woman sees something in me that I don't really understand . And shortly after that , because I got trained in like September or October and I was really struggling in school And I was like I'm just ready to drop out And soon after that , another woman came to me And she didn't really know me , she didn't really know what I was doing . She just was seeing me in the past And at this organization I was volunteering for , and every day she was seeing me . She asked me a different question . So she was like , do you sing ? And I'm like no . She was like , okay , do you dance ? And I was like no , okay .
AshleyAnd one day I did this workshop with these young people And she was there but she had left And I was driving And I got this random call in the middle of the night And I don't know how she had my . I figured I figured out how she got my number , but I wasn't expecting her to call me . And she called me and she said , ashley , like you know , i've been wanting to tell you this , but I couldn't tell you until Spirit told me it was okay to tell you . And I was like huh , and she was like God is going to use your voice to transform the lives of young people . Like when you speak , they listen to you .
AshleyAnd she said , so , whatever you're going through right now because I was going through it , i was going through a really rough and hard time And she was like , whatever you're going through , she said you got to push through it to get to the other side , because there's something that is awaiting you .
AshleyAnd like God is using your voice for whatever that thing is . And so , like that's just an example of like , how , like literally , black women have continuously showed up in my life in moments of confusion or what felt like crisis for me , and or when I didn't know where I was going or how I was going to get there , and have , like , given me a word to say like keep going and moving that direction or push through or reminding me of who I am , and so it was really impactful for her to be able to say that to me And I always , when I tell that story , like I always look back and say it was a , it was a woman that spoke these moments into my life before I could even see him , and and they continue to do that for me And so yeah , Yeah , and 2011 .
Introducing Restorative Justice and Circles
DavidWhat happened after that ?
AshleySo I was , oh so I was actually being trained to work with a woman who had a pilot program out of Chicago when they were just I think they were really starting the RJ hubs throughout the city , and so she had this pilot program that she wanted me to oversee And it was to go to like a couple of these different hubs and work with young people who were on probation . I think it was like they were doing like alternative to incarceration program or something , and I had to go in and do circles with them And these were young people who had never been introduced to circles or justice And I had to do it by myself . And so most times when we get trained , you know , they 'd like , you know , do this work with a cokeeper , and so I went out and not on end , so I was doing that while simultaneously doing work with some young people at the Chicago area project . I was overseeing them . They they had a youth advisory board that was responsible for helping other young people in the city get like funding for different projects and things like that , and so I was able to integrate , you know , and bring circles into that And they were also getting trained .
AshleyBut I was in these communities with , you know , primarily young men who were probation , introducing this , this idea of peacemaking in circles and restorative justice to them and building relationships with them . And you know , it was a lot of trial and error , because who's showing up to hold me accountable to what ? like I don't know , i'm learning what I'm doing And so , but don't nobody else kind of see this , because I'm in here with these young people by myself . But I began to see the power of how we could build relationships through this process . I began to see like what it felt like to bring like values and agreements into spaces .
AshleyAnd I was on the South side , which was really rare for me because I'm from the West side And so I didn't do a lot of work on the South side But to be present with these young people who didn't know me .
AshleyBut through this process we were able to really get to know each other and to deal with one another , to see one another , and that was all the proof I needed . You know , i was downtown working with these young people And just and these are some of the young people who are still closest to me today , you know But then I got to do that work alongside people like Mashaan out of Chicago and a number of other people , and they were just showing me even Dopa in deeper ways to do this work , and so that was it for me . I was like I got to figure out how to do this , and spending this all the time , surely after I was moving to New York , and I was like , whatever experience I got , i'm taking it with me and I'm going to New York with it And I'm gonna figure out how to do this thing there wherever I'm at .
DavidYeah , what did that look like in New York ?
AshleyComing into the community of people who didn't know me . I don't , i don't know , because it was really interesting , because when I came to New York I didn't have , i legit , like I had zero family relatives here , i had zero real friends . I had one person that somebody from Chicago connected me to And she turned out to be like a very like all out religious . Yeah , it was weird , but so that's
Building Community and Trust in NYC
Ashley. I'm slow , but I , when I got here , you know I knew that it would be a struggle , but I'm also a person who , like , who creates community really like fairly not simple , but I don't have problem Like if I live somebody with somebody .
AshleyI was renting a room and , like the girl across from me probably became my first friend And then when I started in the program city , i was surrounded by , you know , a lot of people in the same program as I was , but I instantly connected with you know , one of my friends It was Qandish at the time And just building with people .
AshleyYou know we in the same struggle together And so you know we , we bond and we build and we going out , we broke together , we eat together And so you know that was like my first sense of community and having to create that and be intentional about creating that , because I knew I was in this big place by myself And they didn't . You know , a lot of people in New York didn't notice this idea of RJ and things like that , and so , you know , building community was just part of what I needed to survive , and so it was what I had to embody as well . You know , and so you know , those people who were my initial friends ultimately became my family , like they became my family here in New York my wife , my sisters , my brothers , like they were the ones to this day who get to , who show up for me .
DavidYeah , yeah , i think there's something about one about early 20s , but also about , you know , going through that , that similar struggle , but it does take intentionality about building those relationships . You know you said you're someone who , like , does that pretty easily . But for people who feel like , oh , i can't do this , i'm not outgoing , like Ashley , maybe you can't directly speak this because , like , that is who you are , but like , what are some of the ways that you did that ?
AshleyWell , i also , you know , put myself I had to some of it .
AshleyIt comes with a sense of trust and vulnerability , you know . So I one of my in the program I had somebody who was like a supervisor , but he was part of this program And he was like I really want you to work with these young people that working with outside of the program we were in . He was like , but you got to go through this training And I was just like okay , you know , like all right , that's fine , and I didn't really know what it was . But what it did was it catapulted me into a whole , a bigger community of people who I didn't know , And not because I was like , oh , let me be everybody's friend , but because , like , we were put in a position to kind of build these relationships . They were just people who I just held on to . And so I think , you know , for people who may not be as outgoing , i still think that they , i still think that there's a sense of trust and vulnerability that you have to cultivate to even be open to the people , because my mom used to always say this like you have to be , be mindful of strangers , because you could be entertaining angels , right And so not to take for granted the people who are showing up in your life And I try my best to never take that for granted right to always see , like , why people are showing up in this space or in my life . But I have to , again , i have to have a sense of trust about people showing up right to know that , like more than There were more of them who were showing up for my good than those who were showing up for my bad , and trusting that you know like I was . You know , ultimately and spiritually , i was protected . I was gonna be okay , you know . But I had to trust you know why people were showing up . I had to learn to weed out their intentions and things like that .
AshleyThere was some who made me no good . You know there was some who wanted to humiliate me . You know I was staying with some friends when I was homeless and they posted a picture of me on Instagram and was like , yeah , we're keeping orphan Annie here with us , like , and these are some white girls . You know That thought was cool .
AshleyBut you know , and again , those were some lessons you know It was some people who I trusted who took like real advantage of me And I had , and I took some L's , like some big L's I took , you know , but at the end of the day they were also lessons , you know , and how to see people . But more than anything , i had to , you know , trust that people wanted to see me do well , and so they would put me in communication and contact with other people that they thought would help better my experience while being here , you know . And so I showed up to those places And so , over where I would say , you know , like , have a sense of trust about your journey and why you are what you are , and trust that , like , the universe and God and the divine spirits are sending people your way to support you and to help you , because we aren't created to take this journey alone .
DavidYeah , i think there was so much in there .
Journey of Vulnerability and Community Building
DavidWhat stands out the most you know this podcast is called this restorative justice life And what you just described is how the values that you learned in circle , like this vulnerability and this trust and I know you learned it in other places as well but you take that into life in the individual relationships that you have with people . And it's not clean , not neat , it's not a linear path to getting to where you want to go , necessarily , but you have some of the strongest relationships in your life out of that right . You build community when you model vulnerability And it doesn't always come back to you .
AshleyIt doesn't . It doesn't always come back , but for the times that it does , it's worth it . It's worth , you know , like our life is not promised without like to be lived , without a sense of hurt . You know like things are gonna happen that harm us , and we learn from them , we heal , we can heal from them , and so even people with good intentions , you know , can create harm , and so I can't close myself off from the possible experience of that person , because there can be a gift that rests within our interaction , within our relationship , And even if it's not like it's another relationship , you know that we get to experience .
DavidI think part of it is part of this is just following your story . After City Year in New York , you were told to connect with , like all these other people . Where did those connections lead you ?
AshleyOh , wow . So I started this transformation , like this leadership transformation program , and that's where I was really connecting with this larger group of people . But so really interesting , me and Deesha . So at this point , me and Deesha , i like we rock and we best friends . But we're experiencing a moment where both of us are kind of like house lists , people like we legit don't have our own place to like lay our head , and different things like that . And we had just been kind of like duped by somebody who we trusted around housing .
AshleyAnd there was a woman who was part of this program that this other community that I was introduced to , and she told me to come meet her at her job because she was gonna do something to support us in getting housing . And I didn't know what this place was , i didn't know where I was going And when I get there , i'm sitting in the lobby waiting for her , right . So when I tell you like again how black women show up , right , i'm sitting in the lobby waiting for her . And again , it's this really nice building , you know in West Harlem , and I don't know where I'm at . I saw Columbia but I don't know where I'm at . But she , this is address .
AshleySo as I'm sitting there , three women who I had met over my time in New York , and this is less than a year , three women come through at different times , come through the lobby at different times , and I met them all for separate occasions . And they like , oh , hey , ashley , like I always knew you'd be a good fit for this school . And I was like what Cause ? again , i don't know the context or where I'm at . And so I'm like , okay , you know , it's good to see you too . And so then another person comes and they're like , hey , ashley , like , oh man , i always knew seminary would be good , if you're like you know . And they're checking in , and I was like , again , like I don't have an idea what seminary is , i don't know , have an idea about where I'm at , like location wise .
AshleyAnd then another person comes through and does the same thing . These are all three women . And so then the lady who I'm there and I'm supposed to meet , we're talking and stuff , and she's like you know , there's somebody who I want you to meet . And I was like , okay , you know , at this point we're in the school and she's , you know , we're just talking and checking in , and on our way up there's a friend , my friend Keisha , that she became my friend through this other program And she was like Ashley , what are you doing here ? She's the friend of a friend . She's like what ?
Davidare you doing here ?
AshleyAnd I was like you know , I came here to meet Lorena And she was like , oh , and she , looking at me , she said she should meet Dean Jenkins . And I was like what's happening here , You know ? but like long girl story , I go meet this woman and she's like , what do you want to do ? And I'm like I'm supposed to go to NYU next year to get my master's in social work . She was like , well , Columbia has a master's in social work . You can get a dual degree here with a master's in divinity . I don't even know what a master's in divinity is Like . I didn't come here to sign up for school . I came here to get something that I needed to make sure that I can have housing . But , like that's an example . And so ultimately , like two weeks later , you know , I'm enrolled in this union theological seminary , you know , And so that's an example of how , like , like being introduced and being open and vulnerable to where spirit is leading you , to the people that spirit is bringing into your life , Because going into union created an entire another community
Transformative Activism and Creating Safe Spaces
Ashley.
AshleyFor me , that was most transformative during that time , because that was 2014 .
AshleyThat was the year of Michael Brown , Eric Garner , like all these things were happening in the world And I was catapulted , you know , into a lot of activism and a lot of harm in the world , a lot of chaos , but a lot of love , revolutionary love . You know , it was a union where I met people and community , my brothers and sisters you know that I call now who helped me find my voice . I was introduced to educators like Dr James Cole , who affirmed my writing and my voice when I felt like it was probably one of the weakest things that I embodied . But it was there where I learned how to fight , you know . It was there where I truly began to learn about justice and action and love and liberation And revolution . And so all these places led to somewhere else , you know . And so that's what I mean when I say , like you know , that community introduced me to something else and someone else introduced me to a whole nother community . And I am where I am because those same , those interactions continue to happen .
DavidSo for those of you who are watching , you can see both the shirts Ashley and I are wearing , but for those of you that can't , they both say the word breathe and it defines breathe as The balance , restore empower , affirm , transform , heal and embody . Yeah , breathe is the organization that Ashley founded . Tell me a little bit about how that started .
AshleySo kind of in that same timeframe I was telling you about between being houseless and being introduced to this school I had . Also I had quit city year because I was also I was trying to do circles there and the principal , she didn't like it because I was really building relationship with kids . They were trying to throw away And so she would give me a really hard time about different things . And there was just some things that I refused to do because I felt like it wasn't beneficial to the kids , and so I was like it's either gonna be me or I'm a , i'm a Terrap City year , like just gonna be a rebel and I'm just gonna give them the hardest time . And so I chose to leave And when I left I was offered actually a job to . I had made a declaration . I was like I wanna do restorative justice work in circles with young people in the juvenile justice system . And literally maybe a couple of days later I get an email and they will look for somebody to . They wanted me to come in to have an interview with this organization called Youth Advocates Program because they had a partnership with the Department of Probation in juvenile justice And they wanted to create , they wanted to use this idea they had of circles to create space and a program for girls who were commercially sexually exploited . And now it was really interesting because when I was in Chicago , i used to do work in the juvenile justice detention center And one of the things I used to quietly say to myself is , like I'm not planning no work , no girls . Like I seen girls flip over tables with officers , like holding them , i was like it's just gonna be too much . That was my like , my real thing . I was like I find better with young men and just , and so to do this work with young women , i was like , okay , all right , and this is what I asked for . And so I began to create this framework for using peacemaking circles for these girls that I thought they had identified .
AshleyBut the problem was they systemically and like with their current protocol , they couldn't identify these girls And so they just had funding for this thing , this idea , but had no way of kind of seeing it through . And so at the time , our program and one of the things I had studied and knew about was that , like a lot of programs , the funding was geared around young men . That were probably less than 1% , a 0.1% at the time , programs specifically in the juvenile justice system created for young women , especially here in New York City . And so we had two girls in our program who were , like , mandated by probation to attend the . And so we had two girls in our program who were , like , mandated by probation to attend the the overall program , but not this specific one . And so I was like you know what ? we have two girls . They don't have to be identified as anything Like , let's just do the program with them so that they can have a space , because they didn't have programs that they can go to . And so I started with those two . And those two will bring their friends . So they would bring girls who weren't mandated , who weren't on probation . These were girls from the community , from the Bronx , and so we went from having like two or three girls who were mandated to now having 13 , 14 , 15 girls in a room And one of the things and Deesha was still working with City Year , but she would come out on Monday evenings to do the circles with me And we realized like this is what they want , like they need this space .
AshleyGirls need this space to show up authentically . They need this space to speak their truth . They need this space to fight it out if they need to , because it was friends in a room that would be from one another . They need this space to heal relationships with themselves and with their mothers and with other people . They need this space , like they need this space to breathe . And at first it was just circles for my sisters that we would do And that evolved into this idea of one day I was sitting down and I was writing And it was kept coming up for me And it was like breathe And I ran it by Deesha and she was like that's what we're about to start calling , and so it became breathe circles for my sisters .
AshleyBut it really started out of us identifying a need that Girls were without saying . They were showing up and saying I need this , i want to be a part of this . I need to be . I want to be in community where people can really see me , where I can be vulnerable and I don't have to be tough , or I can share the hard things that's happening with me and know that I'm not alone , or I can share the good things that's happening with me and I can be celebrated , i can heal and I can discover what healing means for me , because some of our girls didn't even like this idea of healing was not a thing . It wasn't language that they knew . And I understood that because the language right , like literally the word heal was when I'm thinking holistically , like mind , body , spirit , trauma , like that wasn't language that I knew until I was an adult . And I will always imagine , like , what if I had this practice and these tools when I was a teenager ? How could my life have shifted ? if I knew how to engage in conflict , different , right , if I knew that I had the power and the tools within me to heal myself and to be a part of community and to help hold somebody else in ways that were healthy , because we did them right As young people . We did that When , me and my friends , we was going through a bunch of stuff and we would look up , and it wasn't until I was old .
AshleyI was writing about this and I'm like where was our parents ? Like , where were they ? Like we was out here , like we was getting drunk , we was doing , and it wasn't because they were bad parents , but we were dealing the best way , we knew how . And I looked back and I realized like , oh , our mothers were also dealing the best way that they knew how , that sometimes they couldn't see us because they were had they own thing . They was trying to get through , right , and so it wasn't neglect , they was just trying to make it to , and so like , how can we help support Heald then ?
AshleySo we started we would invite parents and mothers into the circle , you know , but it started out as that . That is how we started started with three girls who brought some friends and they helped us realize that we were them , that we needed this as much as they did , and also that because it wasn't mandated for majority of them to show up , we knew that they wanted it . You know , they didn't have to report to nobody to show . They was just like I'm coming on Monday , i'm gonna be there , can I come this ? can I bring my sister ? We was like , yeah , you know , we didn't have a layout of how to do this . We was just like the circle is here , you can show up , you invite it , you're welcome .
DavidCan you talk about the importance of that voluntary nature of the work ?
AshleyYeah . So , like , even with girls who were mandated , we always told them that they had a choice to be here . And when we were going to courtrooms and things like that , you know , if they would try to send a young person to our you know , in our circle , we would have to let the judge know that , like , like , they're invited and when they come they might stay because we think they'll have , you know , they'll get what they need . But we will never force them to stay , Because I think that it's important that they have the opportunity to choose that right , to buy into it , to know that it was a safe space . They have to decide that for themselves And I think when they were able to do that , they were even more open , they were more vulnerable because it was their choice , right , They had .
AshleyThey could take all the time that they needed . They didn't have if they needed to miss them days . We wasn't pressing them . It was just like . This is a space where we are creating this for you , And this is what you know , we dream of and you know for you , and this is how we want to create a space where you feel loved , valued and seen and where you can be a full and authentic self and if you want to come , come . And I think that the invitation , instead of the mandate , opened up their eyes to be like , in their hearts , to be like I think I'm gonna go to that and see what it's about . And when they got there , they was like Oh yeah , like this , I'll keep coming to this , you know . And so I think that , like it was really important for them to know that they had a choice in common And that they wouldn't be penalized if they didn't come , You know . And so I think it took away the threat of anything and it was just . It was just community , that was there .
DavidRight
Restorative Justice and Breathe's Expansion
David. I think a lot of the times when folks think about restorative justice , it's just like the alternative to a punitive system . But if you're forcing someone into a restorative alternative , then it doesn't work .
AshleyYou like you , that's that's . That's the opposite of what we're trying to do , like I'm not going , i can't penalize like this . This point is not to penalize you or exclude you , but it is to welcome you from jump , like into a slight an environment that we're creating for you to feel safe in . You know and I can determine what makes you feel safe . Only you can do that . So , by standing in your choice , you're choosing , say that like I feel I'm feeling warm , sensing this , and so I can answer it . You know I want to trust it , so I'm a step into it .
AshleyVersus somebody saying like you have to go to that , and you showing up , you like what is this ? And I don't and maybe I'll say I am right like I'm resistant . I am somebody who is these should could tell me to like go wash the dishes . And if I was , if I was planning to wash them already , i'm just like I don't want to do it now because you , you ain't have to tell me to go wash them , you could have just asked and be like hey , can you go watch ? it's the invitation , is the way that you do things that makes me want to show up and do them differently . Right Like , but don't tell me what I have to do . And because I'm resisting at this point .
DavidI would say and don't ask me in a way that's actually telling me like violin , telling me you know , I get , i get violent , told by Elvis , and I respect them in a different way .
AshleyI'm just like , okay , all right , you knew I was going to do it , but I think they're like , i think that there is , there's power and people being able to choose , you know , and how they want to engage in things , you know , and what they want to do , and we don't . We don't rush that time and we don't rush that process , you know . And so I think that you know , invitation has always been our way And that's because it is also the restorative way and that's what our work is .
DavidIt's rooted in I've heard so much about doing this work is the practice , but it's always great to have some fundamentals . So if you want to tap into the intro to RJ racial and restorative justice course , the link to engage in that learning is in the show notes . If you want to go deeper in your practice or explore other aspects of doing work that is restorative and building a better world for future generations , we have learning opportunities for you to , both in courses and live workshops . If you're in a community school or organization that would benefit from this learning , we're more than happy to get on a call with you to talk about how we can support this work in your context . In addition to rating , reviewing and subscribing to this podcast , amplification of this work also means sharing these learning opportunities with others . So if there are individuals in your life who you want to really know this work in a deep and meaningful way and you've found the things that you've heard here on this podcast really relevant , please send them our way .
DavidThere's something about bringing people like , i guess , like this whole idea of agency is so important like and it's really about like dignifying someone as a human , acknowledging that like you're not just this problem that needs to get solved . You're not just . You know a thing that like we need to like either fill a quota for in our program or like something that like we need to like achieve right . Like you're a person you are , we want to be in a relationship with you , we want to walk alongside you . That's been what you've been doing with breath from the jump . That's not all that breathe has been doing . Tell me more about what breathe has been up to .
AshleySo , um , our work has expanded in a way that has been really beautiful . So I started doing work in the schools I was very fun nonprofit organization doing as a short justice coordinator and then a program director overseeing some restorative justice implementation . But after that I started doing like consulting on the side with a number of organizations about how to bring our gene into schools and their organizations , and so we , like I , was beginning to expand from just a practitioner keeper and by also by way of a blessing that I was seeking . You know , like one of the things that I said was that you know , i didn't want to step into a position or role as a trainer or anything like that , unless I kind of received a blessing from some of my elders , and in 2017 , we were at Oakland and Cheryl gave me that blessing . You know , she gave me the blessing to kind of just move forward in the work that I was doing and trust in the work that I was doing , and I needed that because it was my permission . You know , i understood that this practice was in mind . I understood that . You know , i just had a reverence for my elders to were doing the work and the work that was happening before I even showed up to it , and so I wasn't trying to position myself as an expert of anything , you know , but Cheryl gave me that blessing And so I began to .
AshleyWe began to do training . So we were training and consulting and coaching , and so it expanded in that way . And also so Disha Corn Disha , my partner in brief , my co founder in brief , also my partner in life and wife , and you know , like she has , she's magical with her hands when it comes to nourishing people , you know . And so while we were doing breathe circles from my sisters , we had left the organization that we were doing it with and so , even though they only gave us like $25 a week for like food or in transportation for our girls , so we were still doing a lot out of pocket . We were really doing this work out of pocket , like no funding for real . And so we looked around and we was eating the same things in our community And we were working mostly out of the South Bronx And it comes with its barriers when it comes to food . And so Disha was like you know what , i'm sorry cooking , and so she started , you know , just really cooking for breathe , like the circles of my sister's program , but when we were a program , the young men to be in the other program either way , and so they was just always eating with us regardless . And so it started off with her just cooking for our young people And when she began to fully step into that gift of hers , that created this lane for breathe cafe .
AshleyAnd so it was about how do we utilize our foundational principles about building community . Now we're doing it through pool , and so we will feed in the young people in our program , but then we start to partner with other programs that were working with young people and we were like catering for them And we would , you know , serve them like because we are also , we were serving in this process , and so like using food as a , as a , as a , as a pathway to healing , while embodying these restorative practices . Right , so we come to the table , we'll go and we'll hold circle spaces with different programs , so I would feed in them as well , and it expanded to food , like catering and nourishment , and so now she's , you know , going through this process of becoming a health , holistic nutrition , because we're talking about how do we care for ourselves holistically , and so she brings that into brief . And , last but not least , we have this space , and in full transparency . You know , like I don't know how long it'll be sustained to you , but we have the house of breeze , which is our community space , and it is a space designed to be able to host and hold community members and create spaces of healing in a South Bronx , because there were none We didn't have .
AshleyWe we barely have space , the whole circles and programs , without folks trying to charge us too much or like we can be consistent because their hours were fluctuating stuff , and so we found a space where we could live . But also , you know , we got the landlord to knock in two walls out in the garden level to create this open concept space where we could do trainings , where we can gather folks , where we can have different events , where we can gather together and breathe together and be and have joy and experience revolutionary love . And so this space is called the house of breeze And , yeah , so that those are all the different ways . You know , breathe has has grown . We've done work in Africa with our sister friend Khadija , who is a yogi . I we've been everywhere doing this work , and so it's really been a blessing , you know , since we started both for the people that you work with and for you as well .
DavidI think about like you and you should together , but use specifically . You know it's not a linear path , it's not just a straight . Like you know , I started at City Year , I got to seminary , I dropped out of City Year , like all these things . What are some of the things ? or maybe one time we're like in that , like I don't feel like doing this anymore . What kept you going ?
Ashleytwo times and I'll be quick . So it was one time when I was leaving the . I was leaving the program . I was getting ready to leave the program youth advocates program where I was working and where I started doing the circles And I was also a youth advocate specialist And so I had my own kind of case like young people on my case load . Where I was , i had to be an advocate and mentor for mostly girls , and I had a really interesting situation with one of my young people And I didn't know what to do , like I was trying to protect her , but also like being in relationship with her for some things , and we had this big falling out on top of like I was in school . I was a full-time student . I'm working all these hours . The world is on fire . This is 2015, . All these non-indictants were coming down .
AshleyAnd I was exhausted And I felt like excuse my language . I felt like I had really stuck in this relationship with this young person And I was just like I don't wanna do this , no more . And I was on my way out And one of the other girls who were part of our program she wasn't on , she was never on probation or anything . She caught a case And when she went to court she told them about the circles for my sisters And so the judge mandated her to the program And she requested me to be her advocate And so when I was getting ready to quit I was done . She showed up And there was like we still need you Cause she sought that out . She went through this whole process Like she got her and it was like she got arrested and knew that she was gonna tell them that she needed to come to this program . And so when I thought I was on my way out , she showed up and pulled me back in , and not in a way where I was resistant , but in a way that she was reminding me about why I was doing this in the first place .
AshleyAnd yeah , so that was the first time , but the second time and the reason why I wanted to say this is because this time with COVID really was a space where I was ready to quit in full transparency , and I had said this to somebody , messaged me on Instagram and was like sis , we need you , we really wanna see you . I had done a work out and I was like you got it , like I'm proud to see you have it . I'm proud to look up and see that it's your quotes and your words that are floating around . So if I had the lead to the scene today , i know that there are people who have walked along saddily me , who I have introduced to this work and have become phenomenal in it And I was just like I'm not needed . You know y'all don't need me here . You know I don't need to be in this work right now .
AshleyAnd it also felt very saturated And , in all transparency , i miss being with the people Like my spirit missed hugging folks . It missed seeing and feeling the energy of people And you can't really get that . When you're online , you know you can read somebody's body and know they're not okay or that , like they got something that they wanna say or that they may need to take a break . We may have to tap in a bit more And I desired that and I missed it And I was like this doesn't feel , this doesn't the way that I have to transition , not trend , i have to , but the way that I'm having to adapt doesn't feel good And I wanted to quit .
Restorative Justice and Importance of Rest
AshleyI was just like maybe , you know , i'll catch people on the back end , you know , of this pandemic , oh . And so I was really wanting to walk away from it , but again it was a reminder from black women around me , it was a reminder from young people around me and a request to show up , a loving request to show back up And in however way I needed to . And so it did come with a like come back and do it this way , but like , we see you , we want you here , we want you here And however that looks like for you , right , just show back up , yeah cause I was gonna say there's a difference between , like , just responding to everything that everybody asks you to do And what you just described .
Davidit's like you know you're needed in this space , but being needed to show up in the way that you can right now .
AshleyAnd so for me , that was that is that felt good . You know , it didn't feel like pressure , it didn't feel like like this mandate for responsibility , or it just felt like we see you , we love you , we need you and we want you here , you know . And so I was like okay , i'm here .
DavidYeah , yeah . So what comes next ?
AshleyUm , you know , day by day . actually , you know , it's still some days where I'm like I told you show up . the day I was , I was preparing something And I was like I don't know if this is don't even work . And I was like you said I can just not work . She was like take your time . And I was , and so you know what comes next is you take me day by day , but right now I'm dreaming of you know , reimagining what Breed Circles for my sisters was , and you're creating a program of something called the Peacekeepers that I'm really excited about , and how , because I think that it it is the embodiment of how we've changed And because how we've changed individually and personally .
AshleyOf course , breed Shifts And I think this is what we're creating is , it is the personification of that shift .
AshleyThe reason why we get to acknowledge who we are today , not who we were in 2014 , 2015 , and 2016 , but who we are today and to create from that space . And so what's next is we're imagining and bringing up what this new thing is , but also moving forward in doing this work , And when I say this work , whether that's training or consulting in community , in the ways that feel good for our spirit , because this is spirit work and in the ways that spirit leads us to do it , And so that's what's next . So you'll see me and I'll be doing some trainings . I plan to collaborate with you . You've been holding me in my ebbs and flows and I'm grateful for that And I'm looking forward to , you know , the possibilities of doing work alongside or with you . Yeah , I'm be doing some coaching really soon , like some individual coaching , Yeah , so Yeah , working people learn more about what you've got going on and support if they feel so moved .
AshleyYou can go to our IG page . It is the brief underscore , so B-R-E-A-T-H-E underscore collective on IG And on that it is in our bio . it's the link to our other pages . And then on you can go to our webpage at thebreedcollectiveorg . And those will all be linked in the description for folks You can also .
Davidare these shirts still available ?
AshleyYes , so we're getting some new batches made now in the fall , since we've settled back in , and so we'll have shirts and we'll have hoodies and we have a couple more things we're putting out there . They are very soft , thank you , i must say .
DavidI just have a couple like quick . I thought they were quick questions . People have been taking longer to answer them , but just a couple quick questions before we go Restorative justice . We go . Restorative justice is .
AshleyRestorative justice is a process to be fully human , acknowledging harm , hurt and the pathways to healing . It is also , in its essence , community , personified and relationships .
DavidWhat is one place you wish people knew this work ?
AshleyOne place I wish people knew this work At home , my family .
DavidFollow-up question . How has it been trying to do this work with your family ?
AshleyExtremely hard , i think really quick . I think that my ways of being and embodying the practices of this work has shifted , i think more profoundly than anybody , like my mom , like in her ability to either listen and understand , but it's still really hard for her . But you know some . I think there's a my past one says to me like you know , a prophet is often not heard in his own town or court or something like that . It's scripture . You know , i went to seminary . I'm not great with it , but I feel like sometimes that's how it feels when I'm trying to do , when I'm trying to make this work with my family . And it's really because you know that we all have compounded trauma . You know I've had the opportunity and the language to deal with , unpack and needle through some of that versus the opportunities that they've had . So all I can do is embody it and be it and engage with it in ways that I know how .
DavidYeah , you get to sit in circle with four people . Who are they and what do you talk about ?
AshleyOh , four people who I get to sit in circle with . I would talk , I would . Audrey Lord , hold on a minute . I'm sorry , Audrey , I'm taking it back . I'ma go with my grandma , Bessie . Well , I never had the chance to meet My grandmother , my grandma , my death . I always desire to have a closer relationship with personal relationship , Lauren Hill and my future daughter And we will talk about to be an intergenerational conversation about the ways in which we get to dream of freedom and liberation And love radically , the best way that we know how .
DavidWhat's one thing that you want everyone listening to this podcast to know ?
AshleyThat , even as a practitioner , i am full human And that every day is a practice to show up in the fullness of my humanity . I'm doing and unpacking oppression , hurt and harm And so , as I hold space for the work for others , to show up that I'm not alone . I'm also engaging in this work and other practitioners and to see other practitioners in their humanity while doing that .
DavidI'm guilty of this myself , not with you , but with other people , seeing people who I admire and putting them up on pedestals , thinking that they've got it all together And they don't need help , they don't need support , they don't need rest . It's really important that people who look at people in your position like full humans , because we all are .
AshleyCan I ? just because you said that this last thing is and I think that this is my message to my practitioners and athletes and revolutionary fighters and people on my mind is take the time to rest . There was a pastor , emma Simpson , and she said to us one time and there's a song that says I need you to survive . It says I need you , i need you . And at the end they said I need you to survive . And she looked at us and said yes , and I need you to survive .
AshleySo not this condition that I need you so that I can survive , but that there's this request that I need you , right , i need you to survive , i need you to live and to not be a martyr for this work , because that is that's capitalism .
AshleyRight To exhaust you so that you can , because if you're a martyr , then you're one less person than we have to fight . And so I take the time . So we talk about it all the time , self-care , we post it in memes and we do different things , but really rest and know that , like you , are not the only one fighting and that it does not rest in your hands And that the fight is not over , because we're on one battle right now right , and so we have to be prepared to continue to fight and to do that we have to rest , but along gravity we have to rest , we have to make room for other people to show up , because when you say no to something , you give the opportunity for somebody else to say yes , and it truly is an opportunity . And so you know , it's okay to say no , it's okay to step back , it's okay to yes , because , like , we need you , we need you to survive , we don't need more martyrs for the revolution .
DavidYeah , and finally , who's one person I should have on this podcast ?
AshleyOne person that you should have on this podcast . I'm going to go with Michelle . Yeah , because at the end of the day , bro , really he introduced me to the how to operate in this work , fully in your gift and the way that God has created you to do the work . He showed me radical and dope in different ways to do it Well , to even imagine it . And so I would say , you know , john .
DavidWell , i'll hit him up . Thank you so much , ashley , for spending time with me this morning and for all of the people who are listening , for sharing your story , your wisdom , with all of us . Any parting words ?
AshleyThank you for living and leaning into Amplify RJ , thank you for saying yes to the call when it showed up for you , and thank you for creating space for people to learn this work in real ways , and so I love you , i love you , i love you And I'm grateful for you .
DavidReceived . I love you too , and I meant parting words for the people , not for me .
AshleyAnd it's what I was saying . Just , you know , i think that the parting words that I will have for the people is to remember to breathe , literally , you know , to practice balance , restoration , empowerment , affirmation , transformation , healing and embodiment , but also like inhale and exhale . Remember your breath , remember the essence of why you get to walk around every day . It is in your breath , and so remember to breathe because the world is trying to take it . You know , zora Neale Hurston said if you're silent about your pain , they'll kill you and say you enjoyed it . You know , and like we weren't created to die , right now you know not to be killed in that way .
AshleySo don't let them take your breath , don't let them take it in silence . Breathe , you know , allow breathe as much as you need to breathe , breathe to live , because we need you , we need each and every last one of you , so just remember to keep breathing through it .
DavidThank you all for listening . Be well and we'll talk to you soon . Thank you .
