This Restorative Justice Life

34. Creating Connections in Restorative Justice w/ Jammy Millet

May 13, 2021 David Ryan Castro-Harris Season 1 Episode 34
This Restorative Justice Life
34. Creating Connections in Restorative Justice w/ Jammy Millet
Show Notes Transcript

Jammy is the daughter of two Puerto Rican migrants and was born and raised in Boston, Mass. Jammy has been an RJ practitioner for over 7 years, within the Boston Public Schools and most recently in the Higher Ed space as she created an RJ Education & Implementation Org called StayJust. Jammy strives to live restoratively as best she can everyday; as a mother of two, a life partner and a warrior against the anti-blackness and anti-oppression within her own body. She is also currently homeschooling her two little ones and infusing RJ values and principles into their everyday life. She hopes to pass down healing as a form of currency for generational wealth. 

You will meet Jammy (0:55), the importance of connection (4:24), connection in current events (10:32), and how she got started in restorative justice (15:04). She discusses the limitations of job titles (26:31) and building community new to this work (42:02) and George Floyd (52:18). Finally, she gives her closing thoughts (58:35).

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David Ryan Castro-Harris:

Welcome, Jammy.  Who are you?


Jammy Millet:

I am the daughter of two Puerto Rican migrants.

David Ryan Castro-Harris:

 Who are you?


Jammy Millet: 

I am a Restorative Justice practitioner. 


David Ryan Castro-Harris:

Who are you? 


Jammy Millet: 

I'm a mommy. I am a life partner. A daughter, a sister. And yeah, all those things.


David Ryan Castro-Harris:

Who are you?


Jammy Millet: 

I love using the word passionate to describe myself. So I'm going to say I'm passionate. I am fire. I am loud.


David Ryan Castro-Harris:  

Who are you?


Jammy Millet: 

I'm just out here, trying to figure it all out. You know? That's it. 


David Ryan Castro-Harris:

Who are you?


Jammy Millet: 

  I am forever on the journey. That's it.


David Ryan Castro-Harris:  

And finally, who are you?


Jammy Millet: 

I am Jammy Camille Caraballo Torres Millet?


David Ryan Castro-Harris:  

Awesome. Thank you so much for being here with us, Jammy. It's always good to check in to the fullest extent of the question, or as much as you want to answer. How are you?


Jammy Millet: 

It's so weird because I have gone through a lot of personal things this year so far. So it's like I'm surviving, but I'm also in a weird way the best I've ever been, spiritually. And the strongest I've ever been mentally. So it's like a weird space I'm in right now. So it's like damn, this year has been really hard. And I can be sad sometimes and frustrated, but I'm also in this weird way the best-- the most emotionally and mentally fit I think I've ever been. That's how I am.


David Ryan Castro-Harris:

Yeah, I mean, and you don't have to share what you don't want to, but what are the things that you've been able to do for yourself? What are the practices that you've been able to tap into, that have allowed you to be the fittest that you've ever been in the midst of everything that this year has brought?


Jammy Millet: 

You know, first and foremost, for the first time in my life, I think I have opened myself up for connection. And that has come through a lot of therapy and a lot of realization of lots of things that I hope eventually we'll get into. Some of it having to do with kind of like dismantling the oppressor in me and the anti-blackness that's has been handed down to me. So I think within realizing and coming to those realizations, I have been able to be way more honest with myself. And I honestly just started having conversations with myself out loud-- almost meditative. Kind of like conversations-- with like honest conversations with myself-- has definitely been like a big component to me staying sane and like even though sounds kind of crazy talking to yourself, but I have like full blown conversations with myself sometimes- like checking myself. But also, opening myself up to connection is a big one, something that I have not always done. And I think my children-- and my children primarily have helped a lot with that. Just allowing myself to just-- to be open to connection with everyone, with all people.


David Ryan Castro-Harris:

Yeah, what does that tangibly look like? Maybe connection with your children and then maybe with others?


Jammy Millet: 

So I would say with my children, it’s like, just first and foremost-- just like being more aware of those moments when they're like, they're not attention seeking, their connection seeking, right? And instead of like “ugh, come on, just go to the playroom” or like “whatever it is”, it's like, “all right, I'm going to stay here with you, and I'm just going to listen, And I'm going to allow you to speak to me and I'm going to listen, to truly listen”. And I have found the correlation between connection and truly listening, really listening. And I haven't-- even with being in this work, and in this field wasn't until like a year ago, where I realized that I actually wasn't--  I'm not a good-- I wasn't a good listener. I had this like, I don't know, like, miswire from my brain to my heart, and now I think with the children and doing some therapeutic work with myself, I have realized just sit down and listen to your child and hear them. And then sometimes, I have equipped my children- and I can't even take all the credit. My oldest [Naima?] will tell you, “Mommy, you know, this morning, you were really hard on me”, and she will say those words, “You know, you kind of yelled at me a little bit when I didn't go brush my teeth”. And I'm just like, oh, wow and I'm like, ‘Okay, well, how did that make you feel when mom yelled at you? She's like, “it made me really sad and frustrated because you acted like a mean person. And I know you're not a mean person”. 


David Ryan Castro-Harris:

And how old is this child?




Jammy Millet: 

She's three. She’s three. Oh, my goodness. And I'm like, “Oh, wow, okay, I affected you in this way. And I am sincerely sorry. I apologize, baby”. And that-- in doing that with my children, it has changed me and how I listen and connect with other people. Because now I kind of do the same thing, with my, my close friends, my family. Now I'm like, “All right, let me listen. I'm just, I'm going to hear you, right? And I'm just going to be your mirror for a second.” So that's been really powerful for me. I definitely have transformed the way that I listen. And listen more-- actually listen more with my heart. Because I feel like, I used to listen a lot to try to make logical sense of things, right? Or like to try to, like, you know, I don't know, I don't really know how I used to listen. But now it's just like, I'm willing to bring this in and really give the person that is speaking a spiritual piece of me real quick as I'm listening. And it has definitely transformed my relationships majorly.


David Ryan Castro-Harris:

Yeah, was there like-- what was the catalyst for that change?



Jammy Millet: 

What really kind of jolted me into changing the way that I connect with folks was falling into-- and I don't mind sharing these things-- but I'm like, falling into a bit of a depression early COVID. And then, taking my therapy really serious, and then realizing the work that I needed to do. And so I became depressed over many things, that things that were happening in the world, specifically with police violence, and just many other social justice issues that were just affecting me and my family. And then I realized what I was contributing as far as taking a good look at myself and my family and the anti-blackness that had been kind of generationally passed down in my bloodline, stemming all the way back from colonizers and coming through and like wiping out the Taino, the peoples of the Caribbean who are my ancestors, right? So kind of digging that deeply, and then kind of tracing it all the way back to even my parents and how they parented me. They're both extremely, light skinned like myself. And just kind of like going down memory lane in my own childhood and teenage years and realizing like blatant moments of anti-blackness in my childhood, in my upbringing and then like realizing how I've internalized those. And now as an adult, even though I'm doing this work I'm still perpetuating; the oppressor still lives in me. So that kind of-- is what jolted me into this, like, “oh, no, I need to do something, right? I need to do some work. I got some break unlearning to do, some breaking down to do and that was hard. That didn't immediately make me, “I'm so woke now”. It's like, no, it made me sadder. It made me sadder. And then slowly but surely I started figuring out ways that I can put this unlearning into practice by devoting myself to my family and my partner, and having these conversations and doing uncomfortable stuff like listening to my children and listening to them say, “You were really mean to me today. And that was really crappy of you”, and having to apologize. Because I'm married to a black man and I'm raising black children, so I felt I really I need to do this work. And I feel like home is-- I always say like home is my place in the fight. Unlearning, dismantling the oppressor within me and raising these children and being a partner to my husband is where my fight lies-- is what I believe. So that's kind of when we're all kind of started.


David Ryan Castro-Harris: 

Yeah. What-- and what I appreciate about that so much. As you know, we're coming up on the anniversary of the death of George Floyd and we just passed the anniversary of Breonna Taylor's murder, and of course, like, you know, we're still reeling from Daunte Wright, right, and Dante, right, I'm sorry. And all of the police violence that continues to happen, all the anti-black violence that continues to happen, not just from the police, but from other people. Some people's reaction to that is like, “All right, what am I going to do systemically to change all these things? What am I going to do in my workplace?” And I think like, all of those things are needed. But when you're talking on that systemic level, that policy level, policy is only as good as the people who are upholding those policies, right? And so, I really appreciate, you know, highlighting the amount of internal work that it takes to really live into this work, what it really means to be, yeah, to be about this life. You know, you've been living this Restorative Justice life longer than you knew the word Restorative Justice, right? So in your own words, how did that get started for you?


Jammy Millet:  

So first and foremost, I'm the oldest of seven. And although we didn't all grew up in the same household, I just naturally always had this like-- like I cared about my relationships with my siblings a lot. And I always kind of like, just like innately honored the differences in all of my relationships with my siblings no matter where we all lived, and I just always was super mindful, and I say, this kind of like phrase to myself and to other folks when I'm explaining how I kind of like do relationships, quote, unquote, And it's just like I'm always mindful, or conscious of the relationship even when the other person is not. Right? So I'm always pouring into the relationship, even when the other person is not even aware that I'm doing that, and I've kind of always operated that way in relationships like relation-- I am a very relationship centric person. So, when I finally got into the work piece, right? Work. So I started off in-- I'm from Boston, and I started working in the Boston Public School System back when I was like, 24 and I started off as a paraprofessional, right? Behavior Support Team paraprofessional, but really functioning as the dean of students at an elementary school. 


David Ryan Castro-Harris:

Oh, wow.


Jammy Millet: 

Yeah. And, obviously, I know nothing about nothing, not nothing about running a school, being the dean, nothing. And, you know, I just always been this relationship centric person. So they thought I was good for the job. But they didn't want to pay me as a dean. It’s neither here nor there.


David Ryan Castro-Harris: 

I do think that's important. But we can come back to that.


Jammy Millet:  

We can come back to that. And I just started noticing what we were suspending kids for-- little kids. I'm talking about-- I work in an Elementary School. I’m talking about first, second grade, third grade, getting suspended for pushing and shoving at recess, things like that. And then not only were we suspending them for being kids, we were suspending black and brown kids more than we were suspending non-black and brown kids, right?  I noticed that and then I'm like, “Whoa, I don't feel good about this. What's going on here?” And then I stumbled onto this. BPS, Boston Public School, put on this school-to-prison pipeline seminar or like, workshop, right? And they sent me to that, and that's when I actually started getting the language of school to prison pipeline and what that is right? And then, they kind of like suddenly said the phrase “Restorative Justice”, it was like, not really popping in Boston yet, but they kind of threw that in there like, “Oh, there's some ways to like, remedy this”. And then I'm like, wait, what is that? I don't know, what is that? So I started digging around myself, and then started teaching myself. And then I-- a lot of like, my work with RJ actually is like, self-taught to be honest with just a lot of reading, a lot of research, and a lot of practicing. So I brought circles to the school and I have no idea what I'm doing. But I feel like I'm just sitting in a room with a whole bunch of all my siblings, and like, we're just like talking about, you know, just talking about stuff. Right? I felt like when I was breaking up fights between my siblings like, “Hey, what happened here?” Okay. You know what I mean? Like, what happened? Like, how does that make you feel? You know, and I just started doing more of that with the kids when they were in trouble or getting kicked out of class like, “Oh what happened? Oh, yeah. She said that the teacher said this to her, how did that make you feel? I will need you to communicate it that way with the teacher. All right then, let’s try. Let’s try, let’s try to communicate it that way with the teacher”. So I started off like that, and then before you know it, we were getting folks to come do trainings, and all that jazz. And then, brought into the school climate team, long story short. Shortly after that, I actually got hired on as School Climate, and Restorative Justice Practice coordinator at a high school in Boston, same thing, doing climate work, behavior support work, trying to bring the RJ practices into the high school. And then, I stumbled upon stuff in Suffolk University. They have the Centre for Restorative Justice, and I got, I think a few formal trainings there. But a lot of this work, honestly, like I said, has been self-taught. And I also have to mention, actually, I went-- when I was working in BPS, I was actually at Salem State getting my master's for social work. And it was really there where I actually truly immersed myself in whatever research was out there on the school-to-prison pipeline on Restorative Justice as a form of like a remedy, relationship therapy. I really enthralled myself into RJ, the more kind of like sciency, like science of it, and how it actually affects the human body to really engage in meaningful dialogue. Especially around-- especially when there are, what is the word that I'm looking for? When there's conflict. Yeah, so from there, I went back to my alma mater, Pine Manor College, in Chestnut Hill, Mass, and I accepted the role of—what was my role? As Director of Community Standards and Restorative Practices. So that's kind of been my timeline journey. And like I said, it's so-- it's kind of crazy because a lot of the RJ work is innate for me, right? It's like, it's been in me for a long time before I knew I had the words. And I love when people ask me, so what's your--What's your RJ resume? Or what's your and RJ? Or where you've been trained? I'm like, I got one or two trainings and stuff like that; a lot of this has been self-taught or just in me. I was self-taught or just bringing it out of me to actually just be in relationship with people.


David Ryan Castro-Harris:

Yeah, that's so funny. I'm right in this moment. Right now, I'm reflecting on my training being in circle where you know, you just listen to people talk, but you like blew through like you're entire story and there's so much that I want to pick out in each one of those pieces. So I'm going to bring us all the way back.


Jammy Millet: 

So sometimes I feel like I've been talking too much. So I'm like, “All right, I'm just cut this short, but you let me know where you want me to do better.


David Ryan Castro-Harris:

No, no, it's all good. And I might break this circle keeper in me and interrupt you a little bit. But, I wanted to go back, just like, all the way to the first thing that you're saying like as an older sibling, right? You felt like there was something in you, but to want to be that Peacemaker that relationship driven person. But that generally happens because there's a model for you to follow. Who was that for you?


Jammy Millet:  

You know what? To be honest with you, I think I was operating from a lack thereof. Right? So I think I was operating because I didn't have that role model. And there was so much chaos in my childhood that I sought out peace. I wrote a lot as a kid. And as a sibling, especially, I feel like older sisters, definitely, we just get really like over protective of our younger siblings. And I always try to protect them from the chaos, right. And I think it's because I felt like I didn't have that protection myself. And in protecting them, I felt protected. Right? So I'm protected them not only-- not like in the physical sense, but like in the emotional and like mental sense. So that's why I cared about in my relationship. Now, I wasn't the perfect older sister all the way, but in those ways I tried to just somehow shield them from the chaos.




David Ryan Castro-Harris:

Yeah, no. That makes sense, too, right? It's not always that there's a model, but it's just like, what is the thing that we need to adapt to get that piece of wholeness? And you know, I think seven core assumptions of Restorative Justice, human beings want to be in good relationship. Maybe not like a model from your life, but what was it inside of you that says I want to create this peace in my home, in my community, for these people. You can just attribute it to like “Big Sister instincts”. But I'm curious if there is something like more direct that,


Jammy Millet: 

No, I really do think is, I mean, it's a mixture of big sister in things. And, it says my internet is unstable, sorry. And the fact that I just-- I yearned for it, right, I yearn for like an older sibling, or like a protector of some sort. And I felt a lot of times that I did have that in my childhood. So I kind of like, leaned into the need, in the way of like-- by way of doing that for my younger siblings, and then that transferred into the reason why I got into education to begin with, right? I always said to myself, “Oh, yeah, I want to work with young people”. Right? Because I want to be, you know, a mentor and role model, the role model I never had, or the mentor I never had. That's always-- that was always my rhetoric a lot when I was younger, and I was entering the world of youth development or youth work. I've always done-- I was always like, summer camp leaders, I worked in youth centers, all because that “big sister instinct”, but then also, I always felt like I yearn for that adult relationship, a positive adult relationship.


David Ryan Castro-Harris:  

Yeah, I think about the roles that you got put into, right? Just like the titles of them, right? Behavior, Support Specialist, but it's really like control these people's behavior. And then Culture Climate Coordinator, like, what are we doing with the kids? And then I don't remember exact, exact wording, like Student Conduct, right? Yeah. Those are like the job titles that you've been given. And we both know that Restorative Justice, and this way of being is so much more than just like Behavior Management. When you were stepping into those roles, how did that-- how did that sit with you? Because like, right, you're trying to be like, relationship driven, but, your job description is often like, “Here are the bad kids”, or, “Here are the kids that are having problems”.


Jammy Millet: 

Part of me felt like you know what, I trust myself, right? I know how I'm going to approach this position, right? I know how I'm going to approach this job. So I'm thankful that it's me in this position and it's not anyone else, because I know that I'm going to approach this this way. However, even with those great intentions the system, specifically the school system and even the community-- the school community itself, we like to talk about Restorative Justice being co-opted, right? So I have yet been in an educational setting that has not co-opted the practices, right-- Restorative Justice Practices, because like we said earlier, to me, if you do not embark on the spiritual and personal journey, to dismantle and unlearn the things that you need to unlearn, then you are automatically like, co-authoring these practices If you are in an institution and you say, “Oh, I want to hire a Restorative Justice Coordinator”, but you as a community, or-- yeah, as a community are not willing- not even prepared, because there's no real way, I think, to be prepared for this stuff, but willing to do the personal work that it takes to really be a restorative community or to live restoratively, I feel like you’re co-opting the work. So that's what I ran into in all of those positions. So I was, I mean, as you can see, I ended up out of those positions eventually, right? And a lot of it was because I began feeling oh, no, like, there's nothing that Jammy can do to get through to a whole system right now, because it's not just about the school community. So what I did in those positions, is just focus wholeheartedly on my relationships with people, students, and teachers and staff that wanted to listen to me wanted to engage. And I did that to the best of my ability, but it was extremely difficult. And I'm not going to say that there weren't any successes. But again, we're dealing with a system, a school system that is co-opting the practices. They don't want someone to come in and truly do like-- truly push people to or challenge people to engage with their inner selves. So they could be better people, for the students and evolve. No, yeah. They were in a in a place in in their journeys to be accepting of that. They just, and when I say they, I mean, like the system. And I think they're still not at-- well, they're getting there-- but they weren't at a place in their journey that they were willing to accept what I truly am or take on what it truly means, or truly takes in the restorative community.


David Ryan Castro-Harris:

Yeah, I think about, one, shameless plug for the Summer Restorative Justice Intensive that we're doing for educators where we are focusing on what does it take to dismantle white supremacy culture within yourself and build those proactive practices within yourself, right? The first relationship you have is the relationship with yourself, right? And so if you are internalizing characteristics of white supremacy culture, if you're not in good relationship with yourself, if you're not caring for yourself, how are you supposed to do that for others? How are you supposed to do that for others, period, in your own life? But furthermore, how are you supposed to go into a system that dehumanizes folks and act in a just way, like act in a humanizing way? And so, if you're wanting to go deeper with that, Amplify RJ is a great place to do that. But you know, you talked about like, there were some ways in which that was successful, mostly based off of your relationships. What were the things that you were doing in both your roles as-- maybe think about your role as a Behavior Support Specialist, Culture Climate Coordinator, and then Student Conduct Coordinator. What are-- what were some of the things that you did that were successful in each of those spaces?


Jammy Millet:  

I just remember-- the trend amongst all of them was those moments where I actually just was not an administrator, was not the coordinator, blah, blah, blah, whatever. I was just Miss Jammy and I was listening, because I often found that they just wanted to be-- the students specifically-- actually no, because the teachers as teachers, staff, students alike. Everyone just wanted to be heard and listened to. I never came in with, “All right, I'm the new RJ person, we're going to do RJ”. Like I'm just going to force it down everybody's throat. I just like-- the successes came when I just sat folks down either individually or as a group and listened, and recorded what they were saying. All right, what are your major concerns? Right? What is your experience in this community? Do you feel like you can clearly practice your values in this community? Do you feel valued in this community? Right? And let's talk about that. Right? What would make you feel valued? You know, are there specific people that you want to value you or want to show that they value you? And then from there, you just see people's whole vibe and expression just start changing, right? And that's even without calling it RJ, calling it a circle. Let's just come together and let's just talk. What do we need from our community, and what is it that we have to offer our community? And how can we make that work to make this community a functional one, a healthy one, you know, one, that's good for all people. And when I did that, that's when I actually made the most stride or breakthrough with folks in all positions, because once I did that the first time, and I saw the power of asking those questions, and like, truly just inviting people to not only share, but to be heard, and to kind of like-- because it's not often that folks are asked what are-- or do you feel valued here? Or what are-- what's important to you? Or like, what are your values? And what do you offer the community? So, when I did that, and even with students, like the young people, most of them just wanted to be heard and respected. Because a lot of you know-- obviously, in traditional education, we have this kind of, like, deposit system, like adult teacher, kind of like not very linear way of teaching and sometimes kids-- like young people who just say, “Jammy honestly, I just don't know, I don't learn like that. So when this way of teaching is being forced upon me, I'm going to rebel, because I'm a teenager, and I'm a human being, I'm standing up for myself, and I'm not worth it. I don't learn like that. So, if you're not willing to adjust yourself, then I'm not going to adjust myself”. I remember vividly that conversation with a student, when she was when she was 16. And I'm like, I had not even had half the courage that you have to speak up and say those things. But no one was hearing her. They just saw her as a problem, constantly being put out of classes, and not understanding that we need to adjust, we need to let go of this control over our young people, and let them start making-- being more autonomous.





David Ryan Castro-Harris:

People often ask, where to start when it comes to, quote, unquote, implementing Restorative Justice. And that conversation around values is so important. Like, what are the ways that we want to be together? What are the ways that we're saying we want to be together? And then what are the things that we're actually doing? Right? And what you know, as you're saying, like, when people are heard in those things, it goes like so much smoother, it goes so much better it is healing for folks to be able to really just be who they are and accepted for who they are. I think, one of the one of the journeys that I'm going on right now is this departure from even using like the words diversity and inclusion, because diverse from whiteness, included into a system of whiteness and white supremacy, culture and dominance and oppression and patriarchy and all those things, right. So like, we don't want those things. We want to build a space where people are welcomed, feel like a sense of belonging for who they are, and celebrated for that. And we don't get to have those conversations until we're actually—let’s say we don't get to know those things that will make people feel celebrated and accepted until you have those conversations, right? Like how-- simply like, how do you feel appreciated? Right? How would you like to learn? Like, what are the things within the context of our working relationship or our student teacher relationship that will make you feel valued, right? And like very tangibly asking those questions, right? I'm thinking about the beginning of a summer campish programme that I was running once. First day is like chart paper on a bunch of different pieces of the room where we're all going around, like, “Hey, these are things that I need, as a facilitator of this learning from you, what are the things that you need from me? What are the things that you need from each other? Let's talk about it, right? How are we going to navigate conflict when that happens”. And then when we have those agreements, we're able to navigate forward in a lot easier way. And I know that's easier to do with 20 students that I'm with, five days a week, for four hours a day, for weeks on end. But having those conversations with people in your family, people who you work with, people who you are working for, right? And students prevent so much of this-- can prevent so much of this tension, and proactively set you up to be in good relationship, right?[crosstalk] Go ahead.



Jammy Millet: 

No, I was just, I'm in full agreement. And, you know, to add to that, I just feel like, again, it's not often that we're asked to kind of reflect on our values and the things that are important to us and what we have to offer and things like that. And when we're given this opportunity, that is just like, it plants-- I have seen that it has-- it plants the seeds for healing. And, and I use that word, because it's, I've, I've lived that the past, like, you know, one or two years, were actually really doing the work of figuring out what it is that is important to me as a human being, what that means for my world and the communities that I pour into, and the people, the relationships that I that I pour into. And you said something earlier that I also wanted to touch on was that-- when we feel valued, we are empowered now to like to do and be our full selves and to like pour into others, right. And that reminded me of a conversation that I recently had with my partner about pouring into each other's love tanks, right. And I see with my relationships-- like my relationship like that. And that's why I said about being conscious and being aware of a relationship, even when I'm not required to in that moment, even when the other person, my community doesn't, you know, it's not asking anything of me in that moment. And I find that-- in operating that way, I find that my love tank stays full, because I'm constantly pouring into my communities constantly, equally pouring into my relationships, my relationship with my partner, and that empowers them to then pour back into me, and that's what I like-- I feel loved the most or appreciate the most about living restoratively is that, once you make a practice or make a habit of this, you are just going to just like exude or you're just going to unconsciously be pouring into your relationships just off the strength of “that's my practice my habit now”, and just continuously create this cycle of empowerment in one another where you're both-- where you're all as a community just pouring into each other. You feel connected to each other. Right? Talk about interrelatedness and interconnectedness. You feel a sense of responsibility. And that doesn't feel burdensome, right? Because it's love, it’s values. It's honor.


David Ryan Castro-Harris:

I think those feelings don't make things easy, right? You don't want to paint the picture that once you have these conversations, and you feel this way, everything's going to be perfect, right. What are the ways that you've navigated the hard parts of that? 


Jammy Millet: 

Oh, I mean, I think in the same realm like that, that picture I just painted, it's also very uncomfortable to have to not worry so much about how someone else is treating you or, or the things that that are hurting you or harming you but more focused on the responsibility you have to your community or to those relationships. And that has been very, very difficult and that has that comes with a lot of-- that has come from me specifically, with a lot of work and a lot of being okay with being uncomfortable. Especially when trying to unlearn and dismantle white body supremacy or for example shout out to Resmaa.


David Ryan Castro-Harris:

Menakem, for those who don’t know.


Jammy Millet: 

Yes. I said it like I know him like that, but thank you. 


David Ryan Castro-Harris:

Do you have to be back on Instagram? 


Jammy Millet: 

I know. We know each other.

No, but it just like, No it's-- I feel like that's like the utopia. Like I said before, these kind of communities of people that are just like pouring into each other and pouring into these relationships. But that comes with a lot of work-- a lot of. I'm trying to find the words to describe that work, because it's just-- it's hard. It's uncomfortable. It's practice. It's like a practice or like a series , it's just like an ever--  never ending like, just like work of understanding how to-- how each other's values, and each other's-- I know how to be in community with each other, that's not a one conversation thing or one dialogue, one moment thing. That's like, a million of little moments together that like, I feel like create those pictures or those relationships. So, yeah.


David Ryan Castro-Harris:

Yeah, the question with this work is always inevitably, what do you do with the people who aren't trying to be in relationship with you that kind of way?


Jammy Millet: 

Education for me has been where I found more of those folks who are just really at the place of wanting to engage in RJ work. And what I have done specifically in those situations is, first of all, I never go into any community kind of like trying to force any practices or anything down anyone's throat. I've always just-- especially the folks who have kind of like, shied away or not shown interest in engaging in the work, I've always just found a way to make a connection in some way, shape, or form, right, and not necessarily mean, oh, calling anything like RJ or I just invited like folks like in in some capacity, and I try to connect with them in some way, shape or form. Right? So, they can see Jammy, the person, the human and not so much as, “Oh, Jammy has come in now as a director of Restorative Justice and Community Standards, but just--”. I've always found a way to just somehow connect with people. And if folks just weren't in the space at the given time to connect, then, allowing that to be okay, as well. Never-- I'm trying to think in like, more recently, in my last role. I've never excluded anyone from any opportunity to engage in community work. But I also never forced anything. Allowed people to come, engage if they wanted to, as they wanted to, but then also just extended the invitation to everyone. And that's how I kind of like manage those relationships. And eventually, sometimes they turned into-- I feel like a lot more oftentimes than not, I got folks to want to engage somehow because they saw that it wasn't like superficial work, or they saw the value and being and being valued, if that makes sense. Like they saw the value and being valued and they saw the value and valuing others, as well. And I think once folks got the right impression or the right understanding of what the work was I think they were more- not I thing- I saw that they were more open to connecting. 


David Ryan Castro-Harris:

Yeah, I think for people who are newer to this work or who are in a place where this work is so desperately needed, and the students- both the students and staff people who are working under systems of oppression, need the environment to change now. And like, humans don't generally, I'm not saying they never, but humans don't generally change behavior like that, change thought processes like that, overnight. And so like this process of building relationships and invitations into those thought processes, and these new quote unquote, new ways of being right, these are as old as humans have ever been together. But like that something that I still have a hard time navigating, right? Because I know you can't like force someone into being restorative, but it's so needed. And oftentimes, people don't value it. Unless it's like, oh, there's this crisis, or there's this thing happening and like, bring in Jammy to make the relationships better, or bring in whatever restorative person to make it better, but not wanting to proactively do the work.


Jammy Millet: 

And my, I would always say, like, my favorite place to live, if we look at the pyramid, right, is that tier one, that kind of like the building of relationships, the creation of a relationship and figuring out the values and all that. And I found when people initially, you know, were resistant, once they realized that, and I'm going to be honest, right? It's like, if a lot of teachers or professors-- they thought it was just like this lack of accountability, and this kumbaya-like situation, and it was all about, straying away from punishment, or accountability and all that jazz. And when they realized that it was way more than that, and even-- I feel like the restorative process and accountability through the restorative process, I think it's way more it's deep accountability, as opposed to receiving a punishment and getting sent home for a few days. That's not accountability to me. But I think once they saw that they just kept getting invited to these opportunities to engage with their community, and be valued or be heard, I think their perspective started changing a little bit. What were you going to say?


David Ryan Castro-Harris:

Well, so what you're saying that's not accountability to me. This-- I think Fania Davis, put it really well in article she wrote for Truth Out in response- oh, you're nodding, you know what I'm talking about, right?


Jammy Millet: 

Yeah.


David Ryan Castro-Harris: 

When Derek Chauvin was found guilty on all three counts, the thing that I saw most on Instagram, Twitter is like, this is not justice. This is accountability. And I'm like, “No, this is punishment”. This is like the state calling murder “murder” and punishing someone, right? Like, there's nothing that he needed to do to proactive-- to change his behavior. He just sat there, and he's going to sit in jail for- sorry to say- in prison for probably like, three to six years, let's be honest, and walk back out, probably unchanged, with more like-- without projecting, like with more ignorance, hate, or just contempt or apathy towards what's happened, right? That's not accountability. I hope that he finds some kind of need to change, want to change. And I hope that he's supported in all the ways that he's needed. Right? We talked about Restorative Justice, both being about meeting the needs of the people who cause harm and who have been harmed, right? The state doesn't need to be involved in any of that. But you know, that's the world that we live in. That's why I'm saying like, this is a whole other conversation for another time. [crosstalk] Because you're like you could like-- I know, like naptime is almost over. And I want to get to the questions that--


Jammy Millet: 

You go ahead.

David Ryan Castro-Harris:

--the questions that I asked everyone, but yeah, go ahead. Respond real quick, real quick.


Jammy Millet: 

Ugh.


David Ryan Castro-Harris:

We're not it's not enough time. 



Jammy Millet: 

I was-- I will say and I say this a lot, right, especially in working in these like, Behavior Support or Discipline Community Standard roles is that when I-- if I don't use a restorative, if I use the punitive route, I, the institution, am taking the place of the harmed party. And that is not my right. That is not right. Because I'm saying you broke a rule, all right, in this community, so you're suspended, you're in trouble now. Here's the-- what was-- what did you do? Who did it? How are we going to punish them? Right? I'm taking the-- I, in my opinion, I'm taking the role of the harmed party. And that's not right. That's not I don't have the right to do that. And I feel like in that case, it's kind of like the same thing. I see school discipline in that situation just similar in the sense of, how was that-- how I mean--. I understand, okay, there's something that has been done, I guess, but how does that heal the family? What does that do for the harmed parties? How does that-- does that logically bring someone back from the dead? Like, what does-- this does nothing to heal, to heal the pain of this person being taken and being gone. And I feel like now the state takes the role of the harmed party because of this, just like you said, they calling murder “murderer”. And now we're going to punish who did it. We're punishing this person. And that's just how we do things. But there's no-- where's the space for the family, and for a fault everyone that has been harmed and hurt by this to, to really-- what do they get? That's how I feel. 


What healing does this bring them? What-- that's just been, that's what I don't like, that's what-- that's where my head always lives. It's just like, what does this really do? Does it bring him back from the dead and bring him back to this family and his daughter? It doesn't. Yeah. So that's why I don't talk about it often, because I'm just like, “What is this do? What does this do?”


David Ryan Castro-Harris:

Well, I think, I think the question that we would get in response is one like there are a lot of people who are who-- still like find value in punishment and carceral logic. And so when someone does something that's harmful, they want that person to be punished. And they want that public acknowledgement that this thing happened. And so, I'm not, I'm not judging that. I think the question that often comes to people like us isn't like, okay, so what do you want to do with someone like Derek Chauvin? And I think the possibilities are endless for that. There are lots of different models of-- it doesn't have to be reconciliation with George Floyd's family, right? If they don't want that, that doesn't have to be a part of that. But it looks like- maybe it does look like being removed from community for a while. But what does it look like to do that in something that’s rooted in love and saying, “Hey, you took the life of another person? How are you feeling?” That's awful. And, of course, this can't happen within the context of the criminal legal system, because, there's no space for him to say, “I did this. I'm guilty of this”. And this is how I feel. The criminal legal system says deny, deny, deny, deny, and blame it on this person's heart condition or opioid addiction, right? This man is going through a human experience too; he's going through loss. What are the ways that he can be supported and how do we meet his needs? Part of those needs are for anti-racism training and unlearning white supremacy, right? But it looks like a lot of-- it can look like a lot of different things.


Jammy Millet: 

No, I was just going to say something quick about how I wonder who else in the world feels like me in the sense of I am a person that I value and respect and honor the dignity of all parties involved in anything. And I have a lot of sad feelings for Derek, right- Derek Chauvin for the things that you just said. It's just like there's never space in our-- in the way that we do things right in the punitive system to ask what you just said. You took someone's life. How do you feel right now? What did this verdict say to you right as a white man? Is that even present for you? Were you surprised by the verdict? Why? We're just—anything. Just ask them, treat them like a human being as well. And I feel like when this this system just makes these decisions and they lock people up without regarding the humanity in those people, I feel like we lose them. That's just so lost to me in a lot of ways. Like, there's no rehabilitation there. There's no nothing rooted in love, there's nothing. It's just, “We’ll lock you up, and then when you serve your time, you come back out, and then I expect you to be a decent human being when you come back out. It's like, that doesn't—it doesn’t sit right. Like it just does not. I mean, I know this has been going on forever. But it's just like, that's what breaks my heart the most about anything, right? I don't think he's going to come out and better. I mean, I hope, but the way that our system works, I don't think that he's going to just come out a better human being. And yeah, that makes me even more sad.


David Ryan Castro-Harris:

Yeah. A lot of people come to Restorative Justice with this idea of just being alternatives to punishment. How do you define Restorative Justice?


Jammy Millet: 

So, I know that I love this question, because you ask any RJ practitioner, they're all going to give you different answers. And mine is kind of like a combination of some of my favorite practitioners, but also me, I love whatever Butler said once, in a conversation, that Restorative Justice is like the freedom to practice your own values, right? And that really stuck with me, because it's just like, wow, yes, Restorative Justice is to be in the community where you can freely practice who you are, and be you and be valued and be honored. To me, Restorative Justice is also the recognition that all things are interconnected and interrelated. And the sense of responsibility; things that are, what I went on a rant about earlier, just like that responsibility for the next person in my community and the unconscious, you know, just pouring into relationship with others. And love. I think Restorative Justice is love. As cliche and funny as that sound, it’s love. 


David Ryan Castro-Harris:

Yeah. You get to sit in circle with four people living or dead. Who are they? What do you talk about-- oh what's the question that you ask the circle?



Jammy Millet: 

This is my favorite question to ask. And it's not going to be like the most deepest, most profound, but I really get the deepest profound answers sometimes is, so the first person is Alicia Keys. Okay, for many reasons, but primarily because yeah, I fell madly in love with her work when I was 11 years old, and she's still a big part of my world right now. And many different ways. I feel like she's my spirit sister. The other person [inaudible] we feel like I have a million and I can't even pick four. Oh my god, David. Kobe Bryant. I’ll say Kobe Bryant. There's just so many admirable things about him as a human being in his brain. 


David Ryan Castro-Harris:

I just got to throw this in there. Allegations acknowledged.


Jammy Millet: 

She's acknowledged. Okay. Two more, two more. Two more, two more, two more. Miles Davis. And last one, Maya Angelou. 


David Ryan Castro-Harris:

And what is the question you asked the circle?


Jammy Millet: 

I would ask them my favorite song-- my favorite question to ask folks. What is the song on your heart right now? What is the song-- what song is on your heart right now? And what does that tell you about where you are? 


David Ryan Castro-Harris:

What song is on your heart right now?


Jammy Millet: 

The song that is on my heart right now is Nobody Not Really by Alicia Keys. And if you guys don't know that song, you should check out and hear this on Songs in a Minor- no I’m sorry- it’s on Diary of Alicia Keys. And I love that song. That's a song in my heart.


David Ryan Castro-Harris:

Can't play that because of copyright. But go listen on Spotify, Apple Music, wherever you get your music.


Jammy Millet: 

Nobody Not Really 


David Ryan Castro-Harris:

What's one thing, a mantra or affirmation that you want everyone listening to hear?


Jammy Millet: 

Be mindful even when your mind is full.


David Ryan Castro-Harris:

Just going to sit with that for a second.


Jammy Millet

Be mindful when even when your mind is full.


David Ryan Castro-Harris:

Two more questions and this one you have to help me out with. Who’s the one person I should have on the podcast? You’ve got to help me get them on.


Jammy Millet: 

Have you had Eric Butler on here?



David Ryan Castro-Harris:

I’ve reached out. We’re trying to schedule him.



Jammy Millet: 

Okay. Because, yeah. He doesn’t know me at all, but he’s one of my favorite people ever. Eric. Have you-- you know Suffolk, right? Do you have a relationship with Suffolk?



David Ryan Castro-Harris:

No, not really.



Jammy Millet: 

[inadible] I think an interesting person to have will be Susan Maze-Rothstein I think she is one of the head folks over at Center for Restorative Justice at Suffolk. I think it would be interesting to have her. 



David Ryan Castro-Harris:

Looking forward to that introductory email. And finally, how and where can people support your work in the way you want it to be supported-- we didn't really talk about StayJust at all. So what are you up to now? 


Jammy Millet: 

So back in December-January ish, I started my own Restorative Justice Education and Implementation or StayJust. And it's all me right now. You can find me on Instagram-StayJustIJ, and you can also check out my website on www.stayjust.com.  There you can find more information on me, my story, my background, and also the work that I do. Yeah. That's it. That's what I'm up to asides from mommy and all that good stuff. 



David Ryan Castro-Harris:

Yeah. I know naptime is almost over. But what are the highlights of the things that you do and the ways that you work with people? 



Jammy Millet: 

I do workshops, I do trainings. Yeah, those are the biggest things offer are workshops and trainings and I work primarily in educational settings; primarily Higher Ed. ButI am open to connecting with k-12 folks as well. So yeah. That's me. 




David Ryan Castro-Harris:

So check out Jammy and StayJust. The link to all of things will be in show notes. Really, well me right now, but everybody listening gained a lot from this. So thank you so much for sharing your wisdom, your time on such short notice. I asked you to do this yesterday because we had to reschedule one of our other guests. Really just so much gratitude for your time and your sharing today.



Jammy Millet: 

No problem.



David Ryan Castro-Harris:

Well that is that for this episode of the Restorative Justice Life. We'll be back next week with another episode. Until then, take care. Thank you so much Jammy.




Jammy Millet: 

Thank you.