122. Restorative Justice in "The South" w/ Jo Hanna Thompson

JoHanna "J" Thompson is the Co-Director of the Florida Restorative Justice Coalition. Her career has been dedicated to creating collaborative spaces across an intersection of networks, fostering relationships, and maintaining a vision to increase the capacity of influencers, community organizations, programs and campaigns working toward equitable social and transformational justice.

She lends lived experience and expertise as a Social Impact Strategist, Public
Administrator, Organizer, Guardian ad Litem, Therapeutic Foster Parent, Interventionist, Restorative Justice Practitioner, facilitator, trainer, and Healer.

A self proclaimed agent of change and persuasion, J’s personal commitment and approach to life aligns with community accountability, Structural Reconstruction, and the belief that “one day change gonna come.”

Learn more about the Florida Restorative Justice Coalition and the upcoming Down South Restorative Justice Conference at FRJA.org

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to this Restorative Justice Life. I'm your host. David Ryan by Sega Castro Harris All five names for all the ancestors. So we'll start with Jay. Welcome. Who are you?

Speaker 2: 0:13

Thank you. Who am I? I'm gonna say I'm a mother. Who are you? I am a Restorative Justice Practitioner.

Speaker 1: 0:27

Who are you?

Speaker 2: 0:30

I am a lover of all things fabulous and fun. Who are you? I am a teacher. Who are you? I am a development director for organizations. Who are you? I am funny.

Speaker 1: 1:06

Finally, for now, who are you? I?

Speaker 2: 1:10

am a woman identified as black living in the United States of America.

Speaker 1: 1:18

Beautiful, beautiful. Today's episode is the first in a short series that we're doing highlighting the work of restorative justice in the South. Typically, guests here on this podcast come from California and Chicago, both because that is where I have lived and grown up doing this work. And of course, we've got people in New York, people in Colorado, people in the Bay Area, people in the Pacific Northwest, got some people in Texas. Some of those folks, some of those places that are like, seen as hotbeds, oh, like the DC area, right, seen as hotbeds for restorative justice. We've had someone on from Georgia, had someone on from Alabama. So shout out to Danny, shout out to Jasmine. But you know, I think up front, jay, you reached out to say like, hey, we want to build with folks doing restorative justice work in the South, and so tell the listeners a little bit about you know why it was important for you to come on here, and you know, talk about the conference that's coming up.

Speaker 2: 2:20

Thank you for asking that question. Yeah, one of the key things that we found, especially as legislation is changing in the South, is that restorative justice as a tool has been here but people don't ever talk about it. I remember when we were first having our conversation, david and you were naming all those places that you just named and I was like but that's what I'm talking about. You didn't say anything about the South and the work is being done here. There are people here that are committed to it.

Speaker 2: 2:46

The work has been happening since, like initial appropriations with the balance and restorative justice, where Florida was actually chosen as one of the lead states to be able to develop out what we call neighborhood accountability boards in communities. We had over 17 of them initially and it whittled down over the years as we lost funding. But there have been a committed group of people who are doing the work of restorative justice. Restorative justice practices in our schools, in applications within the criminal legal system, within the limitations that we have in our communities, in our corporations, and we're excited to share that. I'm the executive co director of the Florida restorative justice association, which is an association of individuals who are working to do to build awareness about restorative justice, restorative justice practices and the applications in their lives.

Speaker 1: 3:48

So, yeah, I think I hope I answered the questions that you asked and we'll get into the nuances of some of those things in a bit, but we also have a gathering of folks that you want to invite people to tell us about what's happening in October.

Speaker 2: 4:04

And that is critical.

Speaker 2: 4:07

So the Florida restorative justice association typically hosts a annual conference and, of course, because of COVID, we were unable to do that, but it's 2023, we're back out in the streets, we outside, and so we are calling together people in central Florida in October be on the weekend of the 20th through the 22nd to the down south restorative justice conference RJ the remix and we are inviting all types of people from all of the different industries education, academia, excuse me, academia, education, same thing.

Speaker 2: 4:45

The criminal legal system, our community healers, our, our, anybody who infuses restorative justice practice into their live and then life work to convene in central Florida at the Warren Willis Center, where we can just share knowledge with each other and continue to build. And this year it's particularly interesting because we've extended the invitations, where we typically have folks that are doing the work just in Florida. We've extended the invitation to our neighboring southern southern states because we want to develop out a southern restorative justice network where we really are building on and creating and building resources together with one another. So excited for that, excited for October, excited for people to come to central Florida.

Speaker 1: 5:33

Absolutely and, of course, like the link will be to that down in the show notes or in the description, wherever you're listening or watching this. But let's talk about the work that you all have been doing. You know the words restorative justice are rather new. When we think about, you know, the life of, let's say, the United States or the life of Florida. Right In the last couple decades, the words restorative justice have been formally introduced as alternative to the punitive criminal legal system, as alternatives to punitive or push out school discipline measures. But we all know that restorative justice has deeper roots in indigenous values of interconnection, and so you've been doing restorative justice work for a minute. But how does this work get started for you even before you knew the words are sort of justice.

Speaker 2: 6:27

I love hearing that question when people say that to me, because I answer with I'm a middle child, so anybody who knows about the practice and has older brothers I have an older brother and a younger brother. I'm the middle girl and so there was always opportunities, even just in my young person, as a part of my cultural practice, to be in the. Let's get this information, let's like really get to the bottom of what it is that my older brothers, when they were terrorizing me, was doing. It's just a way of life. And then I became more formally engaged in restorative practice work and still wasn't calling it that in the early.

Speaker 2: 7:17

Let's see, in early 2014 and 15, where I started working with the National Cares Mentoring Movement and Alternative School Systems with young people and we were calling together circles and we were asking those young people to share their stories about how they came to be at the Alternative School System.

Speaker 2: 7:36

Not everybody works in the traditional school system and as we were doing that and as we were sharing these impact stories and we were talking about the history of these young people, I became more aware and the buzzword restorative justice started to become more prevalent. I became more aware that this natural cultural practice, this indigenous practice that we're doing of like doing circles, doing libations, creating containers for people to share their information that this is what was now being called and coined restorative justice, and there started to be organizations that were saying that we're gonna train you in this practice. That has been integral to what I've known in my community for forever that I was just doing. Naturally, that being said, full force, we're looking at who in community is also creating these opportunities for people to come together and have dialogue. And then that's when I found my way into this group of people who are doing this thing called restorative justice out here in Florida, the Florida Restorative Justice Association.

Speaker 1: 8:42

Jay, tell me about Frjad, tell me about your role in this work.

Speaker 2: 8:46

So, yeah, so we call it Frjad and we like to say it with a little bit of a sprinkle and that stands for the Florida Restorative Justice Association, and we're an organization of individuals in Florida who really are just advocating for the application of restorative justice and the practices throughout any part of your life. The actual mission it's kind of boring to like read out a mission, but we are too working to expand the understanding and the use of restorative justice and restorative practices and promote diverse approaches to conflict resolution, community building and effective communication in all systems and organizations, particularly throughout Florida. So my entry into the work with Florida Restorative Justice is really comes from the conference that I was speaking of earlier. That we'll be hosting in October, but in 2018, I believe was the first conference that Frjad was gonna be holding and I wasn't able to go to the conference, but I heard when people came back from the conference that it was amazing we had. There was a presentation by a gentleman, michael McBride, whose son is currently incarcerated for murdering his girlfriend when they were a teenager, and they tell the story of. They requested and asked for a restorative justice process to happen and it was like one of the first processes that was allowed to happen in Florida. That intrigued me. I also was intrigued by I was. This is actually where I met Q. I was in a fellowship, a transformative justice fellowship, and those people who were running that fellowship they were presenting at the conference as well that 2018 conference. I was really mad that I wasn't able to attend. And then in 2020, they had the second conference and that was in Fort Lauderdale.

Speaker 2: 10:43

I was in town, I went with my little young, 16 year old, and during that conference, they were talking about standards at the time developing standards and I was like, whoa, hold up a second. If we talk about restorative justice, how are we talking about developing standards? Because that could create limitations for a large network of people. I was able to go to what at one of the sessions that they were having I'm an intro to RJ because, again, I was with my young teenager person and I thought that that would be really important for her to learn about the practice as a young person going to school in Florida and we were sitting in that circle with police officers. We were sitting in that circle with school officials. We were sitting in that circle with therapists and case workers working with the incarcerated and I was like yo, this is a dope, really intersectional group of human beings that are talking about RJ in a really committed way and in a way that I also aligned with in my priorities. So I was like, well, let me see what they about. And then, of course, I was gonna be a part of this whole standards conversation because I was like really feeling away about that. And then there were also an open community and network of people. So it was like, coming to this conference, if you didn't have the capacity to meet the financial requirements of the conference, this is the one. Back then, same situation for the one that's coming up. They were like pay what you can if you wanna be a member sliding fee scale. So I was like, okay, these are my kind of people. They understand that we wanna reduce the barriers.

Speaker 2: 12:20

And then I became really committed to the work and to this conversations about what it is that we were creating and what was kind of the impetus for developing these guidelines, and come to find out that there was also an apaga report that was released during that time that had done a review of restorative practices in Florida and then in states and talked about what the effectiveness was and growth edges of the work, and so that was like the intersection. The legislators during that time said we need to have something that would give us some kind of guides about what we should be doing with this practice, though they had already had Florida statues that, like I was speaking about earlier in the podcast from the balance and restorative justice, but because that work had dwindled out from lack of resources, it was like a re-igniting of the work on a policy level and so, yeah, starting to have those conversations with 30 committed people that were on the call, sending in resources from their specific area of interest. So we had people from criminal, legal sending in information about how they were doing the practice. We had people from the educational community, we had people from community community sending in information about how they would be doing restorative practice, and then we had to figure out a way of collecting that information and developing something that would be accessible to a large number of people.

Speaker 2: 13:55

And we're in Florida, so, like we in the South-South, I'm in Miami, so I'm in what we like to joke about being North Cuba, so it's a little bit different culturally, but then when you're going up deeper, up into central and North we really do get really elements of the South and conservatism. We have a huge criminal legal system and lots of prisons and a kind of punitive culture here. So for me it was a super challenge to figure out if we are offering to our state a way to think about and engage restorative justice and restorative practice. What is that gonna look like as far as developing equity? And that was my like major push in participating in that whole process. That did take about two years for us to get our first edition of guidelines going. That was my love relationship that developed with Frigiat and from that has developed into me becoming the executive director of excuse me, the executive co-director, because I do have a partner in justice I don't wanna say crime, but a partner in justice doing this work which has become a part of my passion.

Speaker 1: 15:15

You know, what stands out to me, even when you reached out, is like I was not surprised that restorative justice was happening in Florida. Right, and I am sure most people who are listening to this aren't necessarily surprised by that either. Right, this work has existed across all of our people in formal and informal ways for a long time. But when we're thinking about the ways that y'all come together as an organization, as a community, to do work in a state that stereotypically wouldn't be welcoming to this kind of work, for lack of better words, right, what are the difficulties you've run into in trying to for lack of a better word, like amplify restorative justice in Florida?

Speaker 2: 16:04

Yeah, no, that's the right thing. And it is difficult because there is a culture that is used to focusing on punitive measures as a response to harm. I'm not born and raised in the South, so I migrated here from actually California in 2009. And knowing that there's a comparable large amount of the criminal legal system in prisons just per se in California and in Florida, but seeing the approach to harm, it was just like put everybody in prison. I think that we have the largest amount of young people children that are actually incarcerated in our system in Florida in adult prisons. That's a statistic that's really well known. So there are a tremendous amount of barriers to doing this work and the biggest barrier that I have found is in the language and people having an understanding about exactly what RJ is and what RJ isn't, and then also trying to build bridges amongst people who would have different orientations to thinking about responses to harm.

Speaker 1: 17:28

Is the way that I'm. Yeah, what's interesting for me to think about is I'm calling my conversation with Joel Fries from the National Association of Community and Restorative Justice in that aired, I think last spring before the NACRJ conference. And when you're doing work on a statewide, national level with people who are supporting work that they call restorative justice, that means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. You know I ask this question often towards the end, but how do you, jay, define restorative justice and how does that differ from you know, some of the other ways that this work has been done in Florida historically.

Speaker 2: 18:12

Yeah, I, restorative justice for me is about being able to make amends for harm. So that's the justice component of it. The practice component of it, which is the transformative part, is relationship building, and I really think about relationship building in the context, again, of like the cultural components of the way people exist in Florida. I'm in Miami again, so it's a very transient community. There's people that are flowing and migrating through Miami, staying, not staying, and there's always, there's always some type of intersectional thing happening and there's a history of people like mashing up against each other and having conflict, and then there's a history of like people working things out. When it comes to a big music party that comes, that happens down here and everybody is out, and so it's also about a way of life, a way of being. So restorative justice, restorative practice, is in the doing and not in any type of a process that is like mandated to go a certain way, and so I mean that wasn't like one of those clear, definable definitions of restorative justice and restorative justice practices, because it's a human condition and I don't think that there's anything that's clearly definable about that other than the fact that we have the opportunity to be relationship building with one another and by relationship building doesn't mean that we're all you know, koon, bye yah and everybody gets along. It means that we are creating containers where we can have conversations, where we can have a better understanding about how somebody is coming, what their point of view and perspective and coming into addressing harm or conflict, and that's the entire spectrum of that.

Speaker 2: 20:14

I like to I wanna say that I've coined a phrase the new VIP, because we are in a time right now where violence is so prevalent and so many of our different communities and violence in a number of contexts. So I was reading some Daniel Sared and a whole bunch of other people who were talking about the different cycles of violence and people's entry into violence and I was like we're all violence impacted people. So we are the VIPs in this time. We're very important people because we are all violence impacted in some way. We've either done violence to someone in some way or we've experienced it just because of the way that our culture exists at this point in time, and so thinking about that really pulls forth a lot of compassion to really wanna have some understanding as to what a person's entry level into their violence impact is, so that then we can figure out what the solutions are and how we can make amends.

Speaker 1: 21:20

Right. And so when you're talking about, like, the difficulty of doing this work in your space, primarily being like what is it that we're asking people to shift to right? Is it that you're asking people to shift into like, hey, ask these questions when there's conflict and harm instead of just locking kids up, or is it like let's shift to this other way of being, because restorative justice is used both the ways?

Speaker 2: 21:50

Yeah, there is this tension. I would like to call myself reconstructionist and as a reconstructionist, I want to imagine and envision a different way of dealing with harm, and I think that the tool, the critical tool for us to be able to do that is through restorative justice and restorative justice practices. So that is asking the questions, but it also is about bringing in the people who are impacted into the process so that they can have a conversation about accountability and developing and creating real safety. In the way that our system exists now, we have a large amount of recidivism and it doesn't matter in what context we're talking about. So if it's in the educational context and we have a young person who is exhibiting behaviors and we discipline that young person without understanding the root of what those behaviors are, then that person's behavior is gonna continue.

Speaker 2: 22:52

You're not creating safety for the young person who is supposed to be being supported in their development, in their life, but then you're also not creating safety for the classroom environment, for the school environment, because you have a person that's walking around, that is not having their needs met, hence exhibiting behaviors. We see a lot of recidivism coming through the criminal legal system. We see a lot of people getting unjustly fired or having disciplinary actions in their corporate jobs and then losing their desire to even wanna show up and actually produce in a really effective way within the capitalistic context of working in corporate America, and so restorative justice and restorative practice in all of those contexts gives us an opportunity to get to the root of how do we create environments that allow people to feel like they are safe enough to be able to thrive and produce the most effectively, be it that there need to be learning, be it their need to not create what we defined as punishable crimes, harm and or to be effective workers in their jobs.

Speaker 1: 24:01

Yeah, and I think that's a really nuanced conversation that we get to have on a community level and when you've built relationships with folks, but on an entry level, when you're introducing the framework of restorative justice to folks and maybe more pointedly, saying like for me, saying like you know, the Florida restorative justice sorry, frisiat, you know like is inclusive of so many people who are doing work from so many different perspectives, some of them just really focused on like hey, let's stop this punishment, but not necessarily, what are the ways that we are like transforming the conditions under which this is happening?

Speaker 1: 24:44

And I've been maybe like not asking this in the most direct way, but I've heard you talk about like all the different ways that restorative justice can be a part of what you're doing.

Speaker 1: 24:53

And I think, like this isn't necessarily unique to Florida, but in like a stereotypical South that is rooted in like the remnants of chattel slavery, right, and like all of these things, right, we still have agents of the state, right, police who are using words like restorative justice to do work that, like I think is like actually more harmful than like Calling something restorative justice while as, while acting as an arm of the state, is hard to reconcile because like yeah, you're doing this one action here and we encourage like every individual in their day-to-day lives, as a parent, as a Family member, as a friend, as a colleague, to be in restorative relationship with people, but then to say like hey, we're gonna throw this restorative process in the midst of, like this criminal legal system that is Stacked against you and like exist for your oppression To young people of color, to adults of color, to people who are coming into contact with that criminal legal system For just or unjust reasons. Like how do you reconcile that within you know the scope of For?

Speaker 2: 26:05

job that? That is a brilliant question because it's a real lived experience tension, right to sit in a space to to walk into a room. First of all, there's a there's a lot of tensions I have. When I first was introduced into Florida restorative justice association for job, I Felt like the leadership of that space was heavily privileged, non-marginalized community member humans, right. So, like you're walking into a space of people talking about this process and where the most impacted people were not in the leadership of how that process should be actually administered and executed, and we are sitting in a space where agents of the state are Talking about this term restorative practice and restorative justice. The way that I reconcile that tension is I I'm going to say it's. It's because I really want to be a person who is Living Almost authentically to the practice that I am asking everybody else to participate in, right, and I, and I also am super curious as to how do you come into this work.

Speaker 2: 27:16

So, when I went to that Florida restorative justice Association conference in 2020, right before COVID started, and I'm sitting in a circle with two or three police officers Representing the uniform rather than repping, that is, editing themselves as a person sitting in circle and then hearing how the process of being in in a restorative process that these officers actually participated in Changed the way that they approached, how they were doing the work and the way that they Approached when there was a call in their community that they had to go and respond to. That was the moment where I was just like Appreciating how, for Ja in particular, provides an opportunity for us to sit with folks that I would traditionally not be thinking about. I've had experience with police that that the institution does not support any form of restorative practice, but being able to sit in a circle with these people who were representing the institution and hear how them learning about restorative practice and actually being a part of a process Transformed how they were doing the work, was something, as a reconstructionist is the hope, because the system exists right now and I am also, you know I don't know if it's old school, new school or whatever, but I am a person of like inside-outside strategy. Having more people that Adopt this as a practice and a way of life will, in my hopes, wildest dreams, big Beyonce thinking Transform from the inside how people respond when they're called, you know, to To deal with something in community, and I also like to think about. I also think about this. This is bringing up An experience that I've had, going door knocking in community and specifically in predominantly black communities here, liberty City in Florida, and saying and asking the question of you know, what does safety look like to you?

Speaker 2: 29:36

Do you want to like have police in your communities or do you want to a police-free community? And People really looking at me at the barbershop, I was at the barbershop for like four hours having a conversation with the fellas about you know, not having police. And they were like are you crazy? We need police officers. And I was like can we start to imagine a different way of being and Recognizing that even within communities that I feel directly aligned with, that they are not exposed to alternative. So community is not exposed to alternative, the institution is not exposed to alternative and the impetus is for us to Create ways where there's more opportunities for people to be exposed to a different way of Dealing with harm. That's happening, that actually has Better results and I truly 100% believe restorative practice allows for that.

Speaker 2: 30:32

And I've also, as being a part of for Ja, been able to come into contact. I've come into contact with prosecutors who have gotten to sit in a Violent crime restorative practice case because we do have a leading practitioner out here who does, who specifically focuses on violent, violent offenses and to hear those prosecutors say I went through this process and it completely Changed the way that I think about doing my job as a prosecutor. Those are Just like kind of the seeds that give me hope that the more people that start to Learn about the process, the more transformation we have. Because, again, I'm coming from a place where it's rooted in relationship building. If we're starting to talk the same language with each other, then there's greater opportunity for us to get to know each other, then there's greater opportunity for us to build a different way of being. Then what is existing?

Speaker 1: 31:32

Yeah, I am really reflective of you know the, the words that have come out of my mouth over the last almost three years on these airwaves, the things that I've said publicly about you know, being an abolitionist right and Setting personal boundaries of, like the work that amplify RJ will do and not do.

Speaker 1: 31:52

Right, because I think a lot of what you're talking to Makes sense to me on the level of like, hey, individuals are still the people who are making up these systems and there are people Like and is it better that this person doesn't? This person playing the role of police officer today does not stop and frisk a Per, like somebody walking home with their hoodie, right, is it harm reductive that people ask what happened instead of you know what did you do? Right, assuming guilt in in those circumstances? Yes, and I can be hopeful of that. I think I jump forward a lot in my head to like the logical conclusion of you fully embodying this work, like You're no longer an agent of the state in that way, right, both as a prosecutor and as a as a as a police officer. Right, like how do you stand an integrity with values of restorative justice and still do the daily work of you know terrorizing communities.

Speaker 1: 32:53

Let's call it what it is Right, and I'm not saying that like everybody like I'm not saying everybody who is a police officer wakes up in the morning and says, like how am I going to fuck up somebody's day today? I know that's not what the vast majority of police officers or states attorneys wake up to say that they're going to do. This is the impact of the work that you do, right? And I hear the community argument about, hey, we need these structures because we don't have anything better. And yes, we would rather have friendlier police, more restorative police than people who are just coming kicking doors down and overtly terrorizing our neighborhoods, our communities. Like that's important and like, as the co executive director of this organization that is leading restorative justice work, or convening folks to talk about restorative justice, how do we balance meeting people where they're at and like standing in values of like abolition and we'll meet you where you're at, but like this is the vision.

Speaker 2: 33:58

I in the context of the question, I can only speak to my perspective because I can say in full transparency that I don't know. I would not say that everybody who is as part of the of Frisiat or the Florida Association, the Justice Association, is an abolitionist at all. We have a lot of academic people, we have a lot of people, like I said. We have, you know, people that have coming from state attorney's office and all of those people into space. What I will say is that when we are convening spaces, when we do have our monthly meeting and we're hearing from somebody who was incarcerated for, you know, 25 years on a violent offense, who is out now, who is doing advocacy for the community that they're aligned with, and they say, hey, you know language justice is necessary when we're speaking about formerly incarcerated humans to use this language and then, during the course of that call here, somebody adjusting how they talk about victim, offender and the language that they're using and then incorporating that language justice is the thing that me personally, as one of the leaders of the organization, wants to continue to see building, as we're developing relationships in community, and then that also means for me that they're going to bring bringing that back to that community of direct example is that we had the opportunity to do a training to with the Florida Association and criminal defense lawyers, the League of prosecutors, some judges, and that was a training that they came to us and asked us to provide for them because of the relationships of the people that are associated with the organization and who are on our board. But they wanted us to provide them a training so that they had more knowledge about what restorative justice laws existed, how those laws have been applied, how judges in the courtroom are thinking about restorative justice, or when restorative justice is brought up by somebody who's been harmed and they say that I want to process legally, what are the ways that those processes could go forward when those conversations are happening and those type of relationships are being built out. That is how I reconcile what it looks like to be, you know, to be rooted as a person who, who you know, is a study and I will claim socialist and I I, I'm shifting the term abolition Because I'm, I'm, I've done study enough to realize that I'm more aligned with this concept of reconstructionism in the developing of the world, that we want to be an existing. And when I think about what my vision and hope is for the, the police institution. It would be to have.

Speaker 2: 37:04

I did a campaign before where we're talking about the difference between a peace officer and a police officer. Right, and so for a peace officer, it's this idea of somebody who is connected to community, that is accountable, that is responsive rather than reactive, somebody that's trauma informed rather than using excessive force, or police informed. Somebody that would not try to restrain somebody in community when they're responding to somebody, says something, somebody who listens rather than makes assumptions, somebody who is really focused on de escalating an issue rather than escalating it. Somebody who is there to protect people first and not property first, because we're seeing that with a lot of our policing institutions. Somebody that is there, that will know the laws to know how to enforce them for the safety of humans rather than bending the law, which is what we see a lot of police officers doing, right, because they're just using force and aggression and a lot of their responsiveness in particular communities. That they would practice again restorative justice rather than punitive justice, and that they would try to be in the work of preventing crime rather than fighting crime, which is like the language that comes out of like the policing institution. So if we are creating opportunities where we can bring enough people to the table that speak again to what I spoke about earlier the violent impact that people are having then we can, textually, are creating and cultivating a more safe and accountable environment for our actual human relations and interactions with one another.

Speaker 2: 38:53

If somebody is thinking about, I'm thinking about young people in school.

Speaker 2: 38:57

If a young person in school is observing a behavior and a reserving a punitive response to that behavior, that is not the thing that's determined.

Speaker 2: 39:05

Most of the time I've experienced and observe young people will be like damn man, that's not fair and if I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it anyway. You know, because I already know what the thing is going to be. But if that young person is seeing that a behavior results in, all right, we're gonna stop for a minute. All right, we're going to pull the whole group of people who are impacted okay, we're going to talk about what this behavior is doing to actually impact it and we're going to also hold you accountable to all of us will be impacted by the behavior that is really transformative in this nature, just by having to, not having to, but just by choosing to be a part of that type of a process and that's how I reconciled it in my position as the executive co director. Whenever we are building something out, I'm thinking about what equity looks like for all of the people who are again violence impacted.

Speaker 1: 39:54

All of the people, and I and I come from a context of we all are like that reflection and reframe is helpful, going from like reconstructionist and like meeting people were that because like that is what we have to do from abolitionist and being like purist in that and you know everybody has their, their lines where they draw them and, as the co executive director of this organization, that is trying to be like as inclusive as possible, that people who are like really trying to start to learn this work and be in a relationship together in a different way, like it's really important. I think a lot about when we have young people in a school or young people anywhere who is exhibiting a behavior that's causing harm, right, and you know, is it the expectation that they will immediately transform and never do that thing again ever? Right, probably not, even when they're like called into it, like in the most restorative way. Right, we need to be in relationship with folks in order to move forward and help people be in right relationship with themselves, their community, etc. Right, if we think about like somebody signing up to be a police officer, right, with whatever intentions they had, right, and causing harm and x, y, z way. Or even like as a state's attorney, as a judge and you know, whatever role that you play in locking up and, you know, isolating our community members. Right, that's not going to be an overnight like oh my gosh, like I'm going to stop that immediately. There are, there are steps to that and we kind of just have to live with. That's not the energy that I'm called to do, that's not the energy that I carry going through the world, and so, like I'm really grateful for others who are doing that work. So, thank you.

Speaker 1: 41:36

The question that I wanted to ask that you, you know, started to voices like there are some things on the books, there are some laws on the books, there's some policies that exist that are more conducive to restorative justice and you know as problematic as that is when you know the state is involved in like saying, like you can do restorative justice this way and only this way, this is what is legal and you can't do it any other way. Like that's problematic. But what are the things that you've seen in Florida? What are the things that you all are advocating for now?

Speaker 2: 42:09

Thank you for that. That question, because it is one of our primary campaigns that we are working on, is really raising awareness about what the legislative limitations and possibilities are. So the limitations is that on the Florida statues you can participate in a restorative practice if you are a first time offender, which is typically juveniles, and it really falls into some type of diversionary category. So it's not even. It doesn't even hold the actual principles of restorative justice, is not voluntary, it's not.

Speaker 1: 42:49

It's diversion, like it's done, sorry, and if we like like, I wish we could just like call it that like across the country, like everything that is being not everything. Most things that I have seen being legislated and like labeled restorative justice like is diversion and like hey, I'm all for those harm reductive programs that like are keeping people out of jail and prison Beautiful, but don't call it restorative justice when it's not.

Speaker 2: 43:18

Yeah, no, it's literally diversion. So, like we do have to if we're had, if we're purists, right about the practice. Again, here we go into like, where your entry point is into the cycle of violence, right and like. And where can you do the work that like creates the least amount of tension within yourself, right? So within our Florida statutes, like stay on focus.

Speaker 2: 43:47

There was the opportunity to be getting funding and utilizing it for these neighborhood accountability boards, and the neighborhood accountability boards that were developed and had this federal funding really were operating as closely and not so much as diversionary programs, because they did have the voluntary component of it. They did have the, the making sure that all community members were, you know, pulled into the process. It was other than the people who are running the program, it was volunteers who were actually doing the work. So it really was an intentional commitment to an alternative process and it wasn't there to actually participate in any neighborhood accountability boards. So I'm just going off of what I've read in the reports of the people who were doing the work. They did this wonderful booklet where it wasn't even quanta quantitative reflections, it was actually qualitative reflections, where they were taught, telling the stories of the processes that they went through and what the transformation and the outcomes were. So it was a wonderful way of being able to share the benefits of the practice.

Speaker 2: 45:02

But right now, because the limitations go to these neighborhood accountability boards that are not being funded, and because it's for a first time you know offenders, we are asking for some things that would allow more opportunities for people to enter into a process and a practice and then also being you know, to talk about the fact that when harm initially happens, nobody, most people are not ready to just jump right into a process. Right, because you really do need to be very intentional about all of the elements that go on to to getting success, and success meaning that people have gone through the process, and not success that there's a particular outcome. Again, we're talking about a human process that takes time and takes many attempts.

Speaker 1: 45:49

So we are asking for you like just on that, like who would possibly argue against that? Right, and like I know the people who would argue against that on its face. But like even that part where you said, like you know, most people in the moment can't, can't, get into that restorative space, like take accountability, blah, blah, blah, but is locking them up, doing that for them either? Right, right, and so like, okay, so if that's not doing it, like what are we expecting? Like just troubling that one piece.

Speaker 1: 46:29

If there is the pushback of you know well, we can't do it in the moment, we can't respond to the problem and fix it right away, it's like you're not fixing the problem anyway, right, you're just putting somebody in adult time out, right, like that's that piece where that reimagining of, like what's supposed to happen, right, cause, like I'm not saying that there isn't a time and place where people need to be removed from their community where they're causing harm, there's probably a way, like in whatever formation of community safety that we think about, there's probably a space for people to not be in the community that they were terrorizing or causing harm in.

Speaker 1: 47:09

Like, I'm not absolving anybody of, like the harm that they're causing, right, sometimes people, people who have been impacted and need space from the people who have been causing them harm, and that can look like what we think of as jail detention or like any of these, like diversion programs or camps like that we have in California, but, like, the way that we get to that is important, right, like really focusing on the needs of people instead of saying this is what you're being accused of or like this is what you got caught doing, go sit in adult timeout until we figure out what to do with you. Right, until we can, like prove it to the letter law or until, like, you take this plea deal, right Like. There is just something that, like, I wanted to highlight because what you said was important and I didn't want to like get lost before you, like you added on to that next level.

Speaker 2: 47:59

Yeah, no, I think that that is a critical component. So I'd like to go back to, like, the indigenous technology when we're thinking about right, removing people who have created harm, and this concept I don't know which country or people out of Africa, because there's all kinds of conflicting things about it but this concept of Ubuntu right, where you're calling in people rather than excluding them and pulling them out, and so, even if it's the people who are directly impacted by the harm can't be in space together, there is an opportunity for community who is impacted, who is like once, and to remove from it, to call the person in that has created the harm and really sit down and address what those things are, even if it's not like okay, I punched you in the face person. You know I can't sit in the room with you because I'm gonna try to punch you in the face back just because we're humans. But, like you could sit in the room with the person's community faith-based leader who will say yo, I know that A, b and C had this impact. Did you know that this? Now, they got punched in the face, which means that they couldn't go to work, but they worked with somebody who is inconsiderate and now they fired and so now they don't have a job. So now their face is busted, but they also don't have a job, you know, like to be able to do that component of where our criminal legal system does not allow for people to be held in accountability.

Speaker 2: 49:29

I work with a lot of people who have lost their loved ones in the carceral system. They get zero answers, zero accountability. And I remember, you know, as a restorative practitioner, I was like wouldn't you want to, you want to face the correctional officer who you believe was direct or you found was directly involved in the loss of your loved one? Wouldn't you want to confront them? And they were like, no, I want them to be, I want them to have the same outcome as my loved one. I want them to, you know, be dead too. And so I was just like I hear you, I feel you, I'm.

Speaker 2: 50:07

You know, I understand, I'm compassionate towards your expression, but imagine if that person was required to, if that person, not required, enters into a voluntary process where they explain to you what was going through your mind at that moment, that they have to come to your house every single day at a time that you designate, and I was making stuff up and wash your car in the way that you want to wash your car and give you $100 every time that they come for a period of time and you get to and they, you know, had to look at your son's picture in the way that you want them to and if you wanted them to write a poem like would you feel more complete in that than just that person being dead?

Speaker 2: 50:58

And I didn't get a response in that moment, but I got a pause, I got a hmm, I had not even thought about that because I'm so right now seeped in the pain of my loss, but it was like the first time that I got a aha responsiveness. And this is after being on calls with this person on a weekly basis for almost an entire year to say, okay, there's another way of thinking about that, and I think that that is the critical thing that we, as folks to understand the process, can do, so we can drop seeds of a different way of being. That is a way of being that we know worked more effectively than what we have existing right now.

Speaker 1: 51:44

Sharing this work and inviting people into embracing this kind of work has a lot of considerations, because everybody has different orientations towards, everyone has different orientations towards violence. Everyone's had different experiences with violence and harm and at the intersections of their identity, power, privilege, et cetera. Right, they're going to think one way specifically. Right, even people who have been impacted by violence by the criminal legal system like still might experience, like this need for revenge, this need for punishment, because that is the society that we live in. Right, we're inviting people and I think that was a beautiful example that you gave to reimagine if it could be different, whether or not that could happen, for lots of legal reasons and the personal reasons of that specific corrections officer. Right, like that might not be a possibility for that person, but, like the ability to think about, like, oh, this is an alternative that would actually help me get to what I need, not just like, yeah, that person's dead and now their family is suffering the way that I have suffered.

Speaker 1: 52:52

Right, that's important to challenge people to think about. I'm curious, right, as you think about inviting people into more community. Right, specifically in the South, but you know we're talking across the country. How are you wanting people to connect with Frjá, your work and the ways that you wanna be supported. Yes, the conference, but what are some of the other ways to connect and do this work?

Speaker 2: 53:21

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 53:22

So the thing I'm really excited about that we get some really good feedback and response to is the guidelines for facilitation and training that we developed out, and I am a particular advocate because of the amount of work that we put into developing it and knowing what that process took.

Speaker 2: 53:44

But I really do believe that if people go and visit our website, wwwfrjacom that's Frjá or you can spell it out Florida Restorative Justice Association it'll also populate and you go on there and you click on our guidelines and offer us feedback about what you think about the languaging, about the consideration about the equity that is woven into the thought process of what it would take to do the facilitation training but then evolve that into your own practice of facilitating a restorative process.

Speaker 2: 54:18

I think that that is what I would love for people to be able to utilize as a resource and give us feedback about so that we can put out more additions that have additional considerations included In addition to building together to model, so that we are giving ourselves the opportunity to have more legislation to support the work, and with that legislation comes funding and all of the things right. So I know that the carceral system was what 40% on our dollar that we put into all of the punitive and terrorizing our communities, and so if we are being able to get allocations that could come into this other way of doing the work then and people being funded for that because people do have to have their financial sustainability then I think that we're gonna have the hedgeways towards reconstructing the way that we want to be existing and have creating our own safety.

Speaker 1: 55:24

We just got a couple quick hitters to get you out of here. They're not always like quick, but as you've been doing this work, what's been an oh shit moment and what did you learn from it? Now you can take this two ways like oh shit, I messed up and I wish I did something different. Or it could be like oh shit, yeah, I did that and it was awesome.

Speaker 2: 55:46

Just that dope, though okay, as I'm doing this work, I think I've gotten to experience more of the awesomeness of it. I can say that down here in the South it has taken compassion, love and patience to be working with folks that come from a specific orientation around their lives. So the guidelines there was a year we did that. We did that because we were able to shift this thought process about creating standards. We were able to look at our colleagues who are friends in the work, doing what they created Colorado, being able to come to the NACRJ conference and talk about what it looks like for a state to develop some information for people to build off of in their respective work and then to get that feedback from folks. That it's like. We really love the way that you provided a template and conception for how to do this work through the guidelines. So that's a really that's my love space, because there was just so much effort and energy into it. What else has been has felt really good or not so good.

Speaker 2: 57:07

Going through the legislative, educational awareness and advocacy has been difficult, and it's particularly difficult in this new administration.

Speaker 2: 57:19

So that's like here we go and how do we navigate and how do we get folks that might not share the same political philosophies to just listen, to sit down and listen and then be strategic about that.

Speaker 2: 57:35

Right, I'm not the person who can go and knock on most of our congressional representatives doors because they're gonna look at me and not really desire to have a conversation. I'll say that nicely, right? So then, strategizing on who is in your network that they will be open to hearing from, and then really calling on those people, and then the other dope part that's oh shit, is that being able to mobilize a group of people who, again, have been traditionally within the context of the language victims, people that have been harmed, to come and say we want to have this process. This is a part of our healing journey. We want to reach out to the people and we want you to provide us the provisions to be able to do that. That is like yo. Okay, we're making headways because in Florida and particularly, we have like Marcy's Law and all of this kind of stuff. That is what does move the pendulum and the needle, and I'm glad that we have a space where those people feel like they can reach out and come to and we build together.

Speaker 1: 58:43

Yeah, yeah, there's so much there, and what that sparks for me is like over the next couple of weeks, we're going to be highlighting some more of the work that Frigia is doing. Some of your colleagues in the South are doing so I'm really grateful that you brought this to us. Two more quick hitters and again, maybe not so quick, you get to sit in circle with four people, living or dead. Yes, who are they and what is the question? You asked that circle?

Speaker 2: 59:15

Oh, come on, you got to. Let me have some time to think about it. I would want to be in conversation. I really want to be in a conversation with Ron DeSantis. I really do. I really want to sit in a circle with Ron DeSantis and ask him what happened? What happened, boo boo. What happened, what's wrong, what's going on I really do and have an understanding and then really talk about whether or not there is an understanding about the impacts of the things that he's pushing forward and then the way that he's responding to them. That is being elevated on a national level, like what is the goal and the objective here? And that's the thing that I can think of as executive co-director of a sort of justice association right now, because there is so much harm. There's so much harm that's going on.

Speaker 2: 1:00:16

I would love, then, to even have some fun of sitting in a circle.

Speaker 2: 1:00:20

Could you imagine a circle, with President Obama and Trump in a circle together and talking about what were the impacts of being in the highest office and what that looked like in trying to do the work? And then, on a community level, it's powerful to sit in circle with young people, because that's actually the place where I learned the most, where I get the most opportunity to be reflective of myself and the way that I'm thinking about the world. So there's, like you know, I really wanna understand where Ron is coming from Again, where is his entry point in the cycle of violence? Because there's something that's real. I would love to know what it's like to have power right, because when we're talking about restorative justice and restorative practice, we are really talking about, like balancing out power for everyone, and so talking to folks that hold the most power would be really interesting, and knowing that our young people are all actually the ones that are holding the power, that are holding the power that are gonna get us to where we wanna be in the future.

Speaker 1: 1:01:30

What I'm gonna ask you to do is put DeSantis, Trump, Obama and a young person in your life in a circle. What is the one question? You ask the four of them to start that circle.

Speaker 2: 1:01:46

To start that circle. I would start the circle with what are the reasons that you decided to be here? Honestly, because you get people to be in their reflection at that moment and then build off of that For sure.

Speaker 1: 1:02:07

What do you hope to build to? What's the question that you hope to build to in that space?

Speaker 2: 1:02:14

I hope to build in that space and opportunity to be reimagining the world that we live in, that's, in a more accountable, safe, building and relationship, building culture and acknowledging the truth about the fact that we are really rooted in violence all of us. And how do we heal from that?

Speaker 1: 1:02:38

Yeah, yeah, for sure there's so much. I'm really grateful for the depth that you went to Navigating Florida, weather, navigating, tech, navigating all the things that we've done. We'll link to Frijal's website all your resources. But plug the conference one more time. Tell the people all the ways that they can get connected and be in support and in community. Great, I hope you can hear me.

Speaker 2: 1:03:04

Thank you. Yes, Florida is doing Florida. The Florida Restorative Justice Association is hosting our down south conference, so it's really an invitation to all of our Southern partners or anybody doing RJ in the South or RJ anywhere, but particularly amplifying the work of those in the South. It is in October, the weekend of the 20th through the 22nd. That's a Friday through a Sunday, so basically two and a half days of really coming together for knowledge sharing. You can get information about the conference oh, excuse me, it's RJ the remix, so we're looking at the different ways that we apply RJ to our lives, and you can get more information about the conference by going to wwwfrjacom.

Speaker 2: 1:03:52

That's www. Florida Restorative Justice Associationcom. Either one will get you to the website. You can click on the tab that says 2023 conference and get all of the information about the conference. It is all inclusive, so you will get your housing, you will get three meals and you'll get all of the workshops and relationship building that we're gonna be doing for one price and we welcome seeing everyone coming through and joining us and building with us in October Beautiful beautiful.

Speaker 1: 1:04:27

I'm really appreciative of you bringing this to us. I'm really appreciative of all the connections that you're gonna be making so we can continue to amplify this work. Thank you for sharing your stories, wisdom. Keep your sharing your stories, wisdom and experiences. We'll be back next week with someone else from the South highlighting their restorative justice journey. Until then, take care y'all.