Navigating Intersectionality and Building Healing Communities: A Transformative Justice Journey w/ Mia Mingus (Restorative Re-Air)

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Website: https://www.soiltjp.org/
Blog: https://leavingevidence.wordpress.com/ 

How can we navigate the complexities of Transformative Justice (TJ) while addressing the intersectionality of our identities? Join us for a powerful conversation with our guest, Mia, a queer disabled woman of color, a Korean adoptee, and a TJ and Disability Justice practitioner. In this episode, we dive into Mia's work, her passion for composting and vermicomposting as a way to care for the planet, and how she uses humor to bridge communities.

Together, we explore the concept of pods, the people you would call upon if you were experiencing harm or violence, and the power of small actions, like asking for feedback, to create a culture of accountability. We also discuss the challenges of practicing TJ in conditions of trauma, violence, and toxicity, as well as the importance of building relationships and creating a healing culture in our own formations.

With Mia's guidance, we examine the bravery and courage it takes to invite someone into a relationship and the potential benefits and risks of having those close to you as your pod people. We also emphasize the importance of inviting others to learn and practice TJ skills together, and not to conflate feeling unsafe with feeling uncomfortable. Join us for an inspiring and thought-provoking conversation as we tackle the practicalities of Transformative Justice and accountability in our lives.

Transcript

David: 0:04

Welcome to this Restorative Justice Life. I'm your host, david Ryan, vasega, castro-harris All five names for all the ancestors And on this podcast I speak with RJ practitioners, circlekeepers and others doing restorative work about how they embody this way of being in their personal and professional lives. This month, as we're celebrating pride, we're highlighting conversations from the archives featuring RJ practitioners who are proudly part of the LGBTQIA Plus community. We do this work to build a more just and equitable world for everyone, including our queer and trans community members, who are experiencing intense interpersonal, institutional and structural violence. Amplify RJ and the RJ movement as a whole wouldn't be where it is without you, so please know that we celebrate you as you are. We stand with you and appreciate all your contributions to our work.

David: 0:52

While queerness is an important part of Mia's intersectional identity, this conversation covers multiple facets of doing restorative justice work. As always, you can find all the ways to get plugged into the Amplify RJ community, take advantage of learning opportunities or bring RJ to your school, organization or community at the links in the show notes below. Without further ado, let's get into it. Mia, welcome to this Restorative Justice Life. Who are you?

Mia: 1:20

Hi David, thank you so much for having me. Who am?

David: 1:23

I.

Mia: 1:24

I am someone who's trying to find out more about who I am every single day. That's definitely one answer to it.

David: 1:31

Who are you?

Mia: 1:34

I am somebody who's done a ton of work in TJ Transformative Justice Work so over the last two decades, which has been really such, it's been an honor. But it's also, you know, it's hard work and it was at a time before TJ kind of got more trendy or visible. So I've been in it for a little bit now.

David: 2:00

Who are you?

Mia: 2:01

I love this series of questions. It's great. I am also a queer disabled woman of color, korean adoptee, who grew up outside of the US mainland, in the Caribbean, and so that definitely has shaped a lot of who I am in a very rural and small place, so I carry that with me wherever I go.

David: 2:27

Who are you?

Mia: 2:30

I'm also somebody who's done a ton of work in disability justice as well and really helped to forward that framework, helped to create and forward it along with other folks as well who are also doing the same, and again did that at a time where disability justice wasn't even a term that people used and where disability and ableism and able supremacy were not readily talked about, and so it's exciting now to see so many more people practicing disability justice, but also like saying the word disability is talking about ableism in you know, at movement conferences or what have you. So that's been exciting, and especially as a disabled person myself who comes from multiple oppressed identities, disability justice DJ not like a record, but like DJ. disability justice has really felt like a breath of fresh air, you know, of giving me life.

David: 3:35

Who are you?

Mia: 3:37

I'm also somebody who is extremely passionate about compost and soil which is why I named my group soil, which I'm sure we'll talk about later And, in particular, like I think, really passionate about. I know worm farmer, so I do a lot of vermicomposting in particular, and yeah, i just I think that they're, i think we, everything we do, no matter who you are at this moment in, at this historical moment, should incorporate, like every part of our lives in some way, shape or form. Hopefully should incorporate taking care of the planet and taking care of the land that we're on, and ideally our own. It's not about us, but like if that's what helps you taking care of our own survival so that we can actually like survive on the planet and not get extinguished out. So that's definitely part of who I am too. I know like it's too one I was like who am I.

Mia: 4:54

I think one thing people should also know about me is I really love to laugh and I know that I'm in. I'm in serious work all the time if you ask me very serious questions, but like, i really like, i like to laugh, i like to make jokes and I hate to burst people's bubble, but, like, 75% of things I say are jokes And sometimes they get taken seriously and I'm like oh no, that was okay, sure we're going, we'll ride with that.

Mia: 5:27

So I I've been like tapping more into that part of, or like embracing it more I guess is a better way to say it and being like we don't have to always be so serious all the time.

Mia: 5:39

everybody, i mean there is a place in a time and I love being serious too, but, like I also, i like silliness and I feel like we don't. I feel like we don't. I feel like silliness is kind of. It's very like I don't know. People talk, what am I trying to say? It's not valued enough and it's like kind of underrated. It's actually a really important part of our lives.

David: 6:02

Who are you?

Mia: 6:03

I guess maybe what I'll say for the last one is I definitely feel like I'm somebody who knows that, who knows that, like I'm a bridge and that was, i think, like being part of multiple press identities. You are naturally a bridge between communities, but then also I think, with the work that I do, like trying to bridge us to another world or be like a brick in that larger bridge that so many of us, as like revolutionaries and, you know, freedom fighters and organizers and activists are trying to do.

Mia: 6:45

Yeah, i feel like oftentimes in my work I'm holding space, the in between space, for like what could be possible if we can all do our own work and also do our work collectively together at the same time. So I feel like I feel like being a bridge has felt like what most of my life was and is.

David: 7:13

Thank you so much, very, very excited to have you here. We're going to get into so many of the things that you talked about in just a moment, but it's always good to start with a check in. So, to the flow extent that you want to answer the question right now, loaded as it may be, how are you?

Mia: 7:28

Thanks. I think, david, i'm doing good. I'm doing so. I feel like I am a mixture of like this duality in the moment, where I'm at once both like really excited and hopeful. A lot of the work that's going on is exciting and and also just like I live with a wonderful person, my partner. Like I'm obsessed and in love with my dog, who's basically still a puppy.

Mia: 7:57

But then also I feel, like the other side of that duality is that this week, these last couple weeks, have been especially hard for us in this country in particular, and so I think also like being in the last three years have been hard, and so just I think like being in that duality, being in that contradiction That is how I'm doing, so I guess that kind of magnificence, you know, like both the grit and the like, beautiful, yeah, the beautiful struggle.

David: 8:33

I deeply resonate with that And you know, in that duality, right like one, can definitely be overwhelming. And this week, for me it's definitely the weight of well one, the weight of, just like I'm a tired new parent all the time right, the two months is where we're at, but also the all the shit that's happened over the last three weeks, just in general experiencing violence on levels that, like humans, weren't meant to see on a constant basis, but also, like me, internalizing that as like the caretaker of a new little being and like what does that mean for the world that we're building? But like also, yes, we don't do this work in response to the things that just happened this week. We've been doing this work for a long time. You've been doing this work for longer than I have, you know, better part of the last two decades, and so you know the entryway to this conversation in on most of the podcast on this quote unquote restorative justice.

David: 9:33

Life is often you know, you've been doing this work before you probably even knew the word restorative justice. That's definitely true for you, and I imagine it's also true when it comes to the words disability and transformative justice. So, in the grand scope of your life, how did doing this justice movement, revolutionary work, get started for you?

Mia: 9:55

This is a, so this is a great question, and so my answer to this question usually is that I was kind of I mean literally adopted into it. I'm an adoptee from Korea, and so I was adopted as a baby And I was adopted to the island of St Croix in the US Virgin Islands in the Caribbean, and the family that I was adopted into the year I was adopted, my mom, along with nine other women. They were it was a multiracial group of women, so my adopted mother is white And so there was white women. There was also women of color, or part of it, Or I guess now we would say BIPOC women started an organization, a direct service organization to help victims of domestic violence, rape, sexual assault, etc. Etc. And so I grew up in this work. No-transcript. My childhood is like take back the night marches and making you know purple ribbons and Turquoise ribbons, like every time. Like you know, i always joke.

Mia: 11:06

It's like their own little sweatshop, like all of us, though all of us kids who kind of like grew up, you know, who are children of the movement like or especially who were children of that particular movement on the island around that organization. We we all were, like you know Spend our Saturdays with our moms and meetings and we just play in like a random office room while they're meeting. So I was. It was definitely like a part of what I grew up in and we would have conversations about, like racism and white supremacy at the dinner table like I Grew up in a very distinct kind of way that I think a lot of most people probably didn't. I was very lucky that I got to see in, in particular, women organizing for themselves when no one else would, because the island didn't have anything to deal with domestic and sexual violence, and so basically they had a symposium and At that symposium that was the people who had been who come down to speak.

Mia: 12:07

Where are you learned? although she lived on the island, so I think she traveled there. I do, lord Adrian rich, tony K Rambara and I'm Michelle. I cannot remember the last name of the last person I'm, it'll probably come to me but they were there speaking and then by the end of that symposium, they were passing on a piece of paper to people in the room saying if would you be interested in, you know, getting together to think about doing something, to be able to dress Do massive violence, mexican sexual violence on the island.

Mia: 12:41

And then, because the island is so small and It just the organization, the women's coalition of st Croix, which still exists now, they kind of became a catch-all for families in crisis and in a way, and now they've grown to this large organization. So that was like the beginning and then From there it just I kept learning new things and by the time I got to the states, i went to college in the states and then, you know it's funny, i would be like my women's studies classes and like they'd be. You know, we'd be like I didn't know who Audrey Lord was. I grew up with her, i didn't know who she was, and so we'd be like reading Audrey Lord's pieces and I'd be like, oh my goodness like that was the first time I ever really like I had.

Mia: 13:31

You know like I knew about it but I didn't realize, like who she was in In the world. I was like, oh, that's that's just who. I go over to her house and be like playing the yard, like I didn't really know and like, but it was when I was in.

Mia: 13:48

I went to college, in to cater Well, atlanta and and it was there that I got connected with transforming a justice work and really started to understand. You know, the work that I was grew up with was direct service work and That is really important work Absolutely But I knew that and I didn't have the language for it like, so for example, david, like when we were younger, i remember family families.

Mia: 14:21

I remember one in particular stayed with us at our house So that they could leave in the middle of the night to be able to fly off the island to escape, domestic date to escape. There are, these are their domestic in terms of domestic violence. And, and I knew even at that young age, it was a mom and her two kids And we were friends with them, we knew them. I didn't have the language for it, but I knew that I didn't.

Mia: 14:47

But I wanted to be part of making the violence stop and not just kind of Not just responding to it in a way That's like you know, i knew that That guy was still going to abuse people, you know, like, of course, this they were able to say, like you know, the mom and her two kids, but it wasn't necessarily going to stop him from abusing anymore the dad. And so When I found TJ, when I, when I moved to Atlanta, i started working in an organization here, that was really the first time that I was like, oh, this is something, this is a way that we can actually not just keep, just keep responding or responding or responding, but this is a way that we can actually Begin to break generational cycles of violence and harm right changing the conditions under which harm occurs, which is some people's definition of TJ.

David: 15:42

You've talked about that. You've been doing this work for The better part of the last two decades and you know restorative justice. The words has its roots, you know, as identified in English as far back as the 1800s. But really, thinking about the work of Howard Zer and others in the late 70s, 80s, 90s, tj is a 90s Thing. That. That's where the word like originated.

Mia: 16:11

To the best of my ability, to the best of my knowledge, So one one way that I've been talking about it lately is transformative justice is a generative methodology for addressing harm and violence in ways that support survivors, healing Armors, accountability and community health and well-being, without relying on existing punishment systems. So what that all means that jumble of words Is that we're talking about, um, we're talking about a response, an approach to violence and harm that is Generative, not destructive, that actually helps to. In my mind, the most important part is I mean, obviously that doesn't rely on the state And the. You know whether we're talking about prisons, police, the criminal legal system, ice, border patrol, the foster care system, etc. Etc.

Mia: 17:05

That doesn't rely on the state, obviously, but I think the most important part of TJ is that it actively cultivates And that's the generative part that it actively cultivates the very things that we know help to prevent violence and abuse and harm. So things like connection, things like accountability, healing, safety, etc. Etc, etc. Um, so all of that is What, how I think about transformative justice and and I want to be clear too um, i think an important part of understanding TJ is not just that it doesn't rely on existing state systems, but it also doesn't rely on or replicate systemic Violence and oppression, in particular. So not vigilanteism, not, you know, in reinforcing harmful gender norms or something like that. Um, so, in that way, when we, when we talk about TJ for this podcast, we're talking about that bulls and right, we're talking about pushing back and resisting against the world that we don't want, while we actively Build the world that we do want. Um, and, of course, embedded in that is, you know that we're doing my healing for survivors, accountability for folks who have caused harm.

Mia: 18:23

Um, and and any other kind of like Health and well-being, or accountability or healing that might be needed for the community inside of which this took place, especially the immediate community right.

Mia: 18:34

So, like bystanders, like um, the family, the organization, the congregation right that might exist inside of the broader community, um, so that's that's what TJ needs, and and and maybe the one of the best um Core concepts of TJ is that we're talking about responding to violence in a way that meets the immediate needs of that farm in violence, but also that that simultaneously also gets us closer to the world than we actually want and desire and long for.

David: 19:09

Yeah, yeah, and this is, you know, may 2022. Understanding like we've, like we as people, but I imagine, like the way that you conceptualize the transformative justice 20 years ago It was not that, but this is where we are. That definition, the understanding continues to grow And so, for the purposes of this conversation, um, that's where uh, we're playing. I really appreciate that uh framing because it's inclusive of so many things, and I think a risk, um, in doing In labels is that people just like label it as these are the things and this is what it is, and anything that is not within the lines of this definition is not what we're doing. It like that's something else and I I understand that, like, words need to mean things for people to like Understand on like foundational levels.

David: 20:02

But in so many ways, when I think about restorative justice, right, sure, it's about asking questions that are not punitive when you're encountering harm, but thinking back about the indigenous roots of rj, thinking about being in right relationship, being interconnected with uh community. It is inclusive of So many of the things that you're talking about and so like, while there are definitions and distinctions between, like, restorative and transformative approaches, especially when you're thinking about restorative justice programmatically, which is a whole another problem in and of itself. Um, this is the framing that that we're working with, so thank you that.

Mia: 20:38

So the one thing I was going to say that I think is really important Which I kind of said that I think maybe a different way to say it might hit or land better is um We're talking about, basically we're talking about tj. How do we respond to violence in a way that shifts and transforms the conditions that allowed for that violence to take place or to happen in the first place? basically, um and so in that right we're not just to replicate it and kind of the traditional um, direct service model stuff, where it's like you just respond to the incident of violence but you don't actually tend to the conditions that created it or the kind of traditional Organizing activist movements that you know.

Mia: 21:22

Social justice work is just like only responding to conditions, but then an actual incident is a violence or harm happen. We don't know what to do, right. So a big part of tj, and really the essence of tj, is how do we respond to harm and violence in a way that shifts and transforms the conditions that created that violence or harm?

David: 21:47

Yeah, and I think you know the genesis of this framework of responding to harm really did originate within, you know, sexual Violence. Domestic, because of the relationships that were there, where people aren't necessarily wanting to Get rid of the people in their lives that are causing them harm for one reason or another. Right, because of the love that's there, the, the benefit that that person's bringing, the sense of security that person's bringing in other ways, and to rely on the state, um, you know, is harmful for everybody involved. And you know, when you talk about your upbringing, doing dv work, all of that kind of like family, direct, direct care, like it totally makes sense, how have you you? you acknowledge from the jump that this is not by any means easy.

David: 22:36

Right, and a community accountability process, uh, doesn't always happen flawlessly, rarely happens. I don't think there's any like Way to frame it as like flawlessly. But what was one of the first times or a really like Standout moment of a transformative justice process or a count community accountability process that you witnessed? that um was really salient for you, of course, keeping confidentiality and keeping people's identities As out of it, as much as Yes, uh, you know There have been many um, and I think it's like this the bulls, and Of listen.

Mia: 23:18

I'm just gonna say that the whole just so everybody knows like that's all I do is, say, bull thing, because that's the world of tj, but I think also this bull thing of like Interventions or any kind of response, tj response is incredibly hard. You know absolutely and Both hand, if there's also a lot of really beautiful parts of it to to me like, yes, it's hard and There's good things that happen inside of them. Um, so I think You know, one of the one of the ones that I can talk about, um Is that That I can talk about without like breaking confidentiality or uh, whisking my own safety Uh is one that happened a while back. That you know one of the wins, i think.

Mia: 24:15

Okay, let me back it up and say that for a lot of these processes, because they are so hard and because we don't have the conditions or the soil, if you will, that we don't have really rich and fertile soil that we're working in, we're working in toxic conditions. We have to stop planting plants in toxic soil, essentially, like the conditions that we are living in are incredibly violent, they're incredibly toxic, they're incredibly traumatic, and so what success quote unquote looks like in TJ and I would argue, i would bet probably in RJ too is very different than I think most people think or understand, i think most people when they hear about transformative justice, they're like oh my gosh that sounds amazing, and so we'll have a community accountability process and everybody will be accountable everyone will be healed and everything will be great, and it's like no friend or you know, maybe in 0.01% of cases right now we could have that, you know, or what 2%?

Mia: 25:23

maybe I'm being too harsh, maybe like 2%, but most of the time we're trying to deal with harm and violence inside of harm and violence, if that makes sense to people.

Mia: 25:39

And what I mean by that is that we're trying to deal with. You know, harm and violence inside of, like rape culture, for example, inside of it really intense massaging, really intense white supremacy, really intense trans and homophobia. You know, like there's just so much, or just insular kind of conditions, or fear and isolation, or greed, or, you know, punishment, all of that. So, having said that, a lot of the things that I might share that feel really successful or wonderful.

Mia: 26:20

I hope that listeners understand that I'm going to come from a different perspective than maybe most people are. So what I always, what I always say, is but like I liken our TJ oftentimes to like the desert, that I think a lot of people want these like really rich, luscious forest lands, you know where, like everything's growing and beautiful and wonderful, and like really where we're at right now is we are still very much in the desert and the desert is not a bad place to the people that live there and the animals and beings that live there, and they know how to survive, they know how to get water, they know how to, you know, wait in between the rains.

Mia: 27:04

Yes, the downpours are wonderful, but they're few and far between, and so you have to adjust your perspective, you have to adjust your expectations. So, having said that, one of the ones that I think or actually anytime this has happened one of the successes definitely has been whenever, like bystanders or any, to support people in the intervention right or people in, maybe even people who are bystanders to the harm and they're not involved in the intervention, but they were involved and directly impacted by the harm or the violence that happened. Whenever they start taking upon themselves to heal or repair their ruptured relationship. And let me just tell you, david, every community, there's beef and there's, you know, there's baggage, and so it's not even just that you're dealing with the one incident that happened, or sometimes multiple incidences, but then it's also happening inside of that very complex web of relationships In terms of who can help and who's going to be part of this, who was part of what happened, all of that. So, anytime that they take it upon themselves, to work on their relationship, to try to build, to try to practice, repair, build a stronger community for the sake of being able to, you know, not only just hold this intervention, but for the sake of being able to have a healthier community, being able to have a more thoughtful and connected community, all of the kinder community, all of those things. So we're big successes anytime we have I mean honestly, anytime a survivor comes to me and wants a community capability process.

Mia: 29:00

I think that's a win. I think that they're not going to the state you know what I mean like I think that's a win. And that that we have survivors who you know I've had so many survivors come to me who, if anybody ever heard their stories or anybody would be like you have you are totally in the right to take that person to court and you know, like, lock them away forever. And that we have survivors who are saying no, i don't want that. Even though I have been through this thing, that's terrible. I don't want to cause more harm. I don't want them to, you know, have more harm happen to them or have more violence than violence to them. I think that's a huge win too. I can tell you that, like you know, i remember being a part of a response and just as a side note in the beginning we didn't have like TJ trainings and like all of the resources and readings out there that are like we were.

Mia: 30:04

Just I know I can't curse on this podcast probably we were just pushed into the deep end of the pool and you know, had to learn how to swim by ourselves and help other people learn how to swim at the same time, and so it. So, like some of the earlier things that I was a part of, we were just, you know, like we wake up in the night, you have to go to the bathroom and you're just like Where is the bed, where's the door? like you're just kind of like feeling around in the dark trying to get into the bathroom. Like that's why I feel like we it was like I'm trying to figure out what is it that we're doing, and I consider myself a 1.5 generation in this, meaning that I'm not the OG, ogs, but I was. Those are the people that trained me and I'm kind of again like that bridge between the OGs and like the newer generation.

Mia: 31:04

Now that is really exciting. I'm seeing so many folks and not now, but, like you know, the last five years or last six, seven years, and I, you know let me just say I'll just share this like there have been also harmors who have reached out to me to work because they want to work on their accountability, and so sometimes that's because nobody will work with them anymore, because they were so not great to people or when they were in processes. They didn't cooperate. They weren't in a place yet where they could do that.

Mia: 31:46

And because of that they learned, like right, like I don't want to do that anymore And will you help me, work with me. And so I actually feel like those have been some of also some of the biggest, like success stories, and I and I feel like it breaks the myth that so many people are concerned about about harmors or people have caused harm that you know that they only are just concerned about getting away with what they've done or they don't want to keep taking accountability. you have to force them to. That has not been. yes, i do believe that there's people like that for sure, and both, and I think that there's a lot more people than we think who actually do want to be better and do better. they actually do want to account for what they've done, and I don't know how, or they don't have support, or they're terrified of it, because we don't live in a society that encourages people to come forward about their mistakes or about when they've hurt people. So I just have a very long answer to that, to what you asked.

David: 32:52

I appreciate it And there are like lots of things that I wanted to interject on. but you know, i think, like to this last point that you said like that people even ask for these processes is a win in and of themselves, and like the execution of these processes You measure quote unquote success differently, based off of the conditions that exist, right. But to your point about people being people who cause harm, being terrified of what happens, that is, that is so very real, because not just like terrified, they've just been conditioned to like deny, deny, deny, deny right, like innocent until proven guilty. If I'm going to admit to the harm they don't know how is this going to come back and have repercussions on me in a legal sense, in the context of my community? And because our soil is infertile or right desert soil, doesn't it? like it's not easy for like these practices to take roots. It's a really terrifying thing for people.

David: 34:01

I think, a lot of the times when I talk about restorative justice, it's, yes, about like that response to harm. But you know, we have this framing of quote unquote restorative practices building and maintaining relationships rooted in equity and trust to start with, and so like, when there is harm that happens within the context of those relationships, it is easier for us to repair right, we know the values that we have within our community to do that. We know the people who we are accountable to And those people know how to call us in, like or call us out, even right, like, hey, just, i see what you're doing. Stop that right. And like. These are the repair steps.

David: 34:44

Having those explicit conversations, right, having those explicit people in your life, is a really similar framing to framework that you've talked about pods and pod mapping, which in other interviews or writings that I've heard you say like oh, it's like the sci fi, futuristic way of talking about like these really, really nitty gritty things that one proactively help us navigate relationships in in a good way. You talked a lot about this during the pandemic, the early stages of the pandemic, about how we respond to each other's needs, not just like to acute incidents of harm and violence, and I'm curious if you could share just a little bit about that framework, not like the whole training, but you know.

Mia: 35:33

Yeah, i can absolutely share about it and and you know it's so funny because it pods is at once like so intuitive, but also like it's so organic. You know an intuitive that sometimes it's like it's like explaining it. Sometimes I'm like it's just the simplest thing ever, but then it's also not because of the world that we live in and the society that we currently live in. So pods, your pod, are the people that you would call on if you were experiencing harm or violence. Right, and so that is both like if you were experiencing the harm and violence, so as a survivor or as a person most directly impacted or directly impacted. Also, if you were somebody who did the harm or maybe might do the harm as well, as if you witnessed a harm, so you can have as many pods as you want to. Pod is really about. It is a specific kind of relationship inside of transformative justice work And it, your POD people. Again, that's the science fiction part of it.

Mia: 36:49

Your POD people are basically who you would turn to if something happened, and you might have different people in different pods.

Mia: 36:58

So the pod that you might have for if you experienced harm or violence and it was directed at you like if you were the survivor they might be different people than who you might call on if.

Mia: 37:10

If I did some harm to somebody or if I caught, if I was violent with somebody, and that's okay, like you don't, you don't need to have the same people in every pod, but what I would say, though, is that you should.

Mia: 37:25

I would encourage everybody listening to have at least a local pod, meaning people who are in your neighborhood, your city, who can get to you quickly, and I think we all learned this with the pandemic in terms of that crisis, that three year crisis, but definitely the first year in particular, that it really mattered who was living close to you. I would, so I would recommend of course, we all have people who live far away from us, And those people can absolutely be part of our pods but to definitely try to have a local pod, even if it's just one or two people, and then also to have an accountability pod that everybody should have people, or at least one person that they can turn to in their life to talk to you about and say like you know I, this is harm that I did or this is harm, i might do right.

Mia: 38:20

The example I use all the time is if you used to be controlling in your last two relationships and you know that you took some time out from dating and you want to work on yourself, you've worked with your pod around it and maybe you've also had a therapist I don't know whatever else healing modalities or work that you've done, and maybe you met somebody that's you think is cute and you want to try to ask them out or whatever, and maybe you go to that's time we can go to your accountability pod and say, hey, i'm I'm worried that some of these patterns might show up again. Will you support me in that? Right, so it doesn't have to only be harm. That's already happened. So I would recommend that people have at least those two just for your own. Like crisis, emergency, you know safety and immediate safety. But also so that you can start to build that long term accountability work in. And I should say also pod work is. It takes a lot of time. It's not like overnight immediate work. That's going to happen. So start now And I know this is kind of meta, but I really encourage people to have like a pod building pod, if that makes sense, like people that you check in with that you're all building your pods so that you can check in once a quarter, maybe twice a year, whatever works for you, because, again, this is long term work to see to say, like David, how is it going building your pod? Right, and I can share how it's going building my part. I can be like David. I haven't done any work to build my pod over the past six months. I really got to, you know, put some time into that, right, like I think that that's really key because pod work is it's a marathon and you need support for that And it's hard to do on your own.

Mia: 40:15

And the other thing I'll say about pods is that this is a framework for transformative justice work, because if we're not going to rely on the state, right, if we're not going to rely on prisons and police, the criminal legal system, then that means it's us. That means that it's us who will have to deal with things at all the different forms of harm, child abuse, murder, you know, intimate partner violence, et cetera, et cetera. That, like, we're going to have to figure out a way that we deal with these things. And so, given that we need people to help us do that. So your pod people ideally would be the people that ideally would help you to prevent violence or harm from happening, obviously, but that also, if something happened, those are the people you can call in to help you respond, right? Because, david, the goal is not for everybody to call Mia or for everybody to call, you know, like the eight, you know kind of more visible TJ people in the world like that or in the country. That's not what we're. We're not trying to replicate direct service models at all. What we're trying to do is build capacity into people's everyday lives.

Mia: 41:35

So if you start now building your pod, that means that if something happens in two years, let's say, right, that, let's say that I'm called to accountability right in two years. That hopefully that means that I have some pod people that I can turn to and say, hey, this thing happened, you know, can I get some support around that? And remember, we talked about accountability. Your pod people are there to support you, to take accountability. Holding yourself accountable is your job. It's nobody else's job to hold you accountable. We want to move from holding people accountable to supporting people to take accountability Because, again, we don't want it to be that if I do something that's harmful, that I'm just sitting around clasping my fingers like hoping nobody finds out?

Mia: 42:34

right, we want to build strong moral compasses so that if I do something that harms somebody, ideally I would.

Mia: 42:40

or if I harm you, david, right, ideally I would, proactively, without you having to come to me and say you did some, you know. And then obviously, sometimes, sometimes that might have to happen. That's real. We live in an interdependent world. You know I may not be able to recognize everything, but ideally I would be able to proactively come to you and say I'm really sorry about that thing, right, like what can I do to make it better? or or even, hey, david, like, can we check in about what happened? Like, you know, how was that for you? I don't know if that made you uncomfortable, or I don't know if that hurt you or maybe it was harmful what I said or what I did. So that is what, like the work that happens in the accountability pod, in your accountability pod, hopefully, is work to help, to support you to take accountability, which could be any type of work. That includes anything from like supporting you to apologize, learn how to apologize better, or even practice apologizing.

Mia: 43:46

Like maybe if I if I did something that farmed you, David, I would go to my pod and say, oh shit, you know I really messed up and I want to apologize to David. You know I'm such a good friend, like he's such a good friend to me and I, and I'm so I feel so terrible, but I'm nervous. Can I? can I practice here's my apology?

Mia: 44:05

can I practice it with you, all you know, so that when I'm in front of David, like I can actually say it or get some feedback right around, like you know, hey, this apology seems more about you than it does about David, you know whatever, so it could be about that kind of work, but it could also be work to just like build a culture of accountability, right And like, where you have people that you can come to to share about mistakes you've done, talk about things you're ashamed of or embarrassed about, talk about your feelings about things all of that kind of talk about your own personal work, right, like to change your behavior all of that can be part of what you do with your accountability.

David: 44:46

One like the things that you're talking about are actually like, very simple conceptually but very, very hard to do, and so it takes in a tremendous amount of courage, one even to initiate the conversation with like Hey, do you want to be this person in relationship with me? Because the person gets to say no if they don't want to be right, and that kind of rejection is really hard. And so I don't want to dismiss or belittle the bravery, the courage that it takes to put yourself out there to invite someone into that kind of relationship with you. That's not something that I have generated outside of like best friends quote unquote, best friends and like my immediate family, right, and there are benefits and risks to having those people be your pod people because of like the interlocking. You know the complications that come in to all of that, which, again, like Mia's, got lots of resources out there to like help you all think through some of these things as well.

David: 45:46

But the thing that I really wanted to like zero went on is, like you know, you're only accountable to yourself.

David: 45:51

Only you can hold yourself accountable, and in today's world and we can take that to mean very many things, But I think, like in global capitalist or late stage global capitalism and like an incredibly online world where we see so many things where people cause harm or people do things that offend us And I hate to bring up like the words, quote unquote, cancel culture, right, but like trying like public attempts at accountability and doing this work at scale like rarely, if ever, manifest in anything restorative or transformative.

David: 46:30

It is just like replicating like systems of harm. And to your point about like I'm not, like like we're not trying to like direct everybody to Miriam Kaba or Mia Mingus to like solve all of our problems, like how do we scale up this ability to like understand these frameworks and then like practice in our own lives before we even like start to call people out publicly? Because like that I don't know if you can think of a time where like public and a public community accountability process like happened like quote unquote successfully, but like it's very rare. It just looks like punishment a lot of the time.

Mia: 47:08

Yeah, no, i cannot think of one. That is because the thing about it is that when you call somebody out publicly, when you're using shame as right, as your tool of choice or whatever right like, usually what not does is it forces. Usually what it does is it just means that people learn how to hide the harm. They're doing better, or they maybe you can get an apology out of them, but it doesn't necessarily change their behavior.

Mia: 47:44

This is also it's also complicated because, like I understand that we live in a culture and a society where there's different levels of power and status and sometimes calling somebody out is the only you know is the former power, that that somebody might have right against, like a very you know I'm thinking about like celebrities or something like that. But I also think, though, that part of what the ideal of what we want to be able to do, is we ideally we want people to be able to take accountability for themselves And in order to do that, to your question, in our everyday lives there's so much work we have to do. There's there's so much soil we have to build because we are living in cracked, barren earth, like that's where we are, and some people like for people listening to this who are like I, live in an amazing community and I we have so many never plus a TJ minded people.

David: 48:50

That's wonderful, and I say that with all sincerity, that is wonderful for you, i'm so happy for you.

Mia: 48:56

That's what we're trying to get you. But I would argue the most overwhelmingly, the majority of people do not live in those communities And many people are really isolated. I mean.

Mia: 49:09

David even when you know, as, as in the past, like what, eight, nine years since I wrote that pods thing And that concept was put out, one of the things that I really learned so deeply is and I travel before the pandemic I travel all over North America and spoke and met people in different communities. One of the things that struck me so intensely and immensely for this is like the past 15 years is that people are so lonely. People don't have strong relationships. Like most people I would argue most people that I met really don't have a best friend, like a real, genuine best friend. You know that they can actually be their whole, complete, silly, messed up, flawed self with A lot of people don't have somebody, or they might have just one person in their life And that's it And that's it.

Mia: 50:09

So I think part of what we have to do, part of that soil, it looks like supporting each other around our own accountability and building a culture of accountability wherever we are, in all of our relationships, right? So in your friendships or if you have partners or lovers, what have you? you can ask from time to time. This is something I learned from my current, my current partner that I've had for 12, almost 12 years now is. I remember when we first started dating she would ask like maybe it wasn't like formal, it was just like informally, but it was like twice a year At some point.

David: 50:49

She would just be like you know, and it was weird, It was like while we were getting ready for bed or like dinner together like it wasn't.

Mia: 50:55

It wasn't like. Now we will have a serious conversation.

David: 50:58

It was just like hey you know.

Mia: 51:00

How are you feeling about everything. Is there any things that I'm doing that you wish I did differently? Are you happy? Are there any things that you know that you want to? any feedback you want to give me And I had never experienced that with a partner before. That's how I knew she was a good partner.

Mia: 51:17

It's that I should say but like, and then I started doing that to her too, like, so then we would both ask it, And again it wasn't like formal, it was just like checking in. And I started doing that in my friendships And I started doing that in my other relationships, my comrad relationships, all kinds of things. But like even small things like that, how do we build in that culture and all of that small work right, doing our own healing, investing in our own work to heal our own individual trauma and then, obviously, engaging in collective healing work together?

Mia: 51:51

which I think is one thing that RJ definitely gets like. So practice, definitely that's one thing, that it one of its powers. But I also feel like David, there's so much so, there's so much more right. There's like figuring out what your values are. There's, you know, trying to do less so that you're not running around constantly like a chicken with its head cut off, so that you have the time to practice your.

Mia: 52:21

You know, i know self care has become a buzzword, but like for lack of a better term like your self care, your own time for yourself, your own time with your kids, whatever it is, because when we get rushed and what capitalism relies on, the breaking of relationships And so when we're rushed and stressed and never having enough time, all of that is how, like all of those things help to support unaccountable right, and unaccountability just at large right. And so I would say that obviously, building pads, but I also think that a big part of this is building a new paradigm, and so what I always encourage people to do is invite your pod people. If there's a TJ training coming up, invite your pod people to it so that they can start to build the skills and the knowledge too, so it's not just you by yourself And then you can talk about it or read an article together, watch a video together on accountability even Yeah, there's so many things that people can do. And because we want to get to the place where we can have these hard conversations and where people don't confuse feeling unsafe with being uncomfortable.

Mia: 53:41

Right, because, remember, you have to be uncomfortable if you want to grow. If you don't care about growing, then you can stay the same forever, but comfort and transformation do not live on the same block. So we got to be uncomfortable And we can't then say well, now you're making me feel unsafe and so now you need to be accountable to me. We got to get past that, and a lot of that is embedded in our own trauma, granted of course, some of that is generational trauma, but a lot of this is our own individual trauma that we haven't necessarily done our work around and when I say work.

Mia: 54:18

I'm saying it can be everything from like more formalized healing, like therapy, body work, acupuncture, whatever modality works for you, all the way to the other side of the spectrum, which is like being connected to some form of spirituality meaning something larger than yourself, not organ.

David: 54:38

It could be organized religion, but it doesn't have to be.

Mia: 54:40

It could be things like spending time in nature. It could be things like creativity and artwork, like all of that. I mean the whole spectrum, so I'm not here saying that, like everybody has to be in therapy or everybody has to be doing the same thing. What I'm saying, though, is that everybody should take investing in their own healing seriously and know what that looks like in their life.

David: 55:04

Because, you know, amplify RJ is trying to do very similar things right.

David: 55:10

Like you, people just need to know that, like restorative justice isn't what caused the like the parkland shooting right, soft on discipline, whatever.

David: 55:20

Like people just need to know like definitions of these frameworks and so they understand, like you know what we mean when we say accountability, what it takes to hold yourself accountable, what it takes to establish those relationships, have those explicit conversations around values and, in the world that we live in that is so fast paced that disincentivizes us from that slowing down, from that healing work, from that quote unquote self-care, right, both the both the self soothing, when, like there is things that are activating us and like the proactive things that we're doing to like keep ourselves like in quote unquote balance or like on a journey towards healing, it's really tough to do that and without people like yourself, in communities across the world, people who really know this work and like are deep practitioners, not to like put you on a pedestal or like give you solubility, but like people who are like, very experienced in doing this, like it's really hard for this to like proliferate.

David: 56:25

I know some of the work that you are trying to do with soil is in order to like continue to build people's capacity. What are the things that you're doing within the context of soil and what are some of the other ways that you are encouraged by like the growth of this? I'll call it a movement of transformative justice, but in like the lowercase M. Movement sense of the word.

Mia: 56:50

Let me just practice this by saying I was kind of taken out of the world for a year last year. I mean I had some medical body issue stuff that happened. I still worked because unfortunately we live in a society where you gotta you can't just heal.

Mia: 57:09

You have to keep working. Oh, capitalism. So I might also have missed some things, so I may not be, at this moment in time, like the most up on everything that's happening. So, soil, though one of the reasons I created soil was because, to your previous question, i was like we gotta back it up. We gotta like you know, i think when we talk about TJ, everybody immediately thinks of, like the most egregious forms of violence, the worst forms of violence, and I'm like y'all, we can't even handle conflict and misunderstandings well.

Mia: 57:55

Like we, we can't even handle hurt feelings well, like we got a long way to go. We like, yes, of course we want to be able to respond to, like rape and sexual assault yeah, absolutely, and there are definitely those of us who are doing that work for sure. But also we can't respond to those well if we're doing that inside of a context that is completely toxic or completely unprepared for any of that. Like just like you're saying, like people, when I talk about needing to understand the paradigm, yes, it's everything you're saying, like it's people need to understand one, what the hell we're even doing. But they're like, why are y'all keep meeting together, like what is happening in there? you know, and so even just understanding the, what accountability is, what TJ is what, what it is that, the approach, the, the kind of like general approach that we're trying to take, or even just that there is a different way, outside of punishment, to respond to harm, like I mean, from so many people, especially in this country, they've never even thought about that. Um, or like, we got to start figuring out and defining what justice looks like between each other, because if we don't even know what justice looks like between each other, how are we going to demand it? and if we're all doing justice work, justice based work, then, but we don't know what justice is, then what are we doing? right, like, we're demanding justice from these institutions and from these systems, but we can't even work out what justice looks like between two people, three people, you know, inside an organization, inside of a coalition. So so that's one.

Mia: 59:44

Um, soil was literally the metaphor of like how do we build better soil? we have to stop planting plants in toxic soil. What would that look like? um, so, because right now and this is again the desert, right, like we, we metaphorically, we're planting tj in barren soil with no water, no help from no fertile out nothing and expecting it to perform and grow as if it was planted in like super rich, fertile soil.

Mia: 1:00:16

So part of soil's work is to literally our mission is just to build the conditions for transformative justice to be able to happen, and and to happen effectively, but to even be able to happen at all. David like that, we're still there. The bar is very low. And so that includes right two pronged approach which is like, basically, how do we saturate communities with just basic one or one level information? right, like what is tj? what is accountability? what is the pod? how do I, how do you build it all of that? right, because pod is basically like a community informal infrastructure. Right, which is what we're trying to build. And then the other branch of that of soil's work is to go deeper with the people who do want to actually like lead interventions or, you know, hold mediation, be able to hold mediation processes or what have you, or just be leaders in tj organizing um. So that's what soil's work, is what we are doing, and we do a lot of work around like trainings.

Mia: 1:01:27

For sure, we have strategic partners, but we also are building what I'm calling my cellio networks, which are basically just like formations of people who, or communities doing tj, practicing tj in some ways, shape or form that are either like above ground or below, and then creating tools and so soil's work, is really, in my mind, like uh filling. Uh, filling one of the many, many, many, many many gaps and things that we have, gaps that we have and things that we need in tj work, and I, i mean I feel really heartened and excited by tj work right now. The field, i think, is one the summer 2020, like so, gave tj so much visibility, um, and I can't even explain to you how much, how many people reached out to me that I had no idea who they were. I had no, i had never heard of them before, but they were so excited about tj because they never heard of it before. So I feel excited by that, like burst of life into it. I also feel nervous about the co-optation of tj, because anytime something gets visible eyes, people like to take it and corporatize it, um, but you know, that's that's what everything, um, you know.

Mia: 1:02:53

I, i think some of the most exciting work that I see happening is work that's not necessarily is like the everyday stories of people, um, that are that are trying to do, make something out of nothing and like, are succeeding at that. You know that are that, are not. They don't have a website, they don't have funding or anything, but they're like, like we, we want to. How do we build this more? and and quite frankly, let me just say this to people listening like, quite frankly, our movement culture is very toxic and so a lot of the people, communities that I've been working with outside of movement culture actually have have more like, uh, assets for lack of a better word uh, you know more fertile soil there we go um than folks who are inside the movement. Not everybody inside the movement, but like, come on, people like we, we're workaholics, we live in an incessuous movement culture, who we, you know, like, there's just so many things, um, yeah, that are very toxic about movement culture that in many ways exist, you know, as a part of the conditions that surround our movements, which, of course, will show up, um, but I do.

Mia: 1:04:15

I think what's really exciting now is that, because there has been such visibility and more people have learned about TJ, a lot more seeds are getting planted and a lot more people are experimenting um, you know, like the one million experiments work or document and work that Marin's doing and, like you know, i think about um, even the creative work around like folks trying to figure out how to do TJ and different types of uh structures, like you know, or at work like if not, if not, if full TJ is not possible, can we infuse some TJ work into things to to lessen, because TJ is both an abolitionist framework and a harm reduction thing came out of harm reduction as well.

Mia: 1:05:02

So can we lessen the harm um? and you know, when I think about organizations you know they're in our movements I'm like that is a site where we have to do more work because if we're gonna say that organizations are gonna be one of our main not the only, but one of our main structures that we're gonna use to build movements, then we're gonna have to figure out how to deal with harm and abuse and violence that happens because there's time happening inside of them inside of movement spaces, harm happens all the time.

David: 1:05:36

People in quote-unquote positions of power, right, whether that is somebody who is the executive director, um, or you know, just movement celebrity of the moment, whether they asked for that or not, right? people project values onto them and when they don't live up to those values, or when the conversation in the genesis of the formation of these organizations, like because they happen out of crisis so many times, like when those values and principles and agreements between people, like aren't explicit or people are just projecting, like people who are working towards the same goals, come into conflict and like Then our movement splinter because, like, we're not able to deal with, like the interpersonal beef that comes up. Right, like, how do we like? I know you're talking about like the need to build that capacity, but you know How do we navigate that?

Mia: 1:06:28

listen, it's so many things and it And it's happening everywhere. I mean, that's the thing, right. Like I think about T. I think TJ is so critical to our work to get free, both on a movement level as well as just like a general community, like interpersonal level. Like I think about TJ as like the foundation upon which our movements sit. Like if we don't have a strong foundation, because let's, let's also think about it this way, like if we, if we do win right and we do get to liberation or we're able to start to build some of our own systems and structures or what have you We're still gonna need a way to deal with harm and violence and abuse.

Mia: 1:07:12

Like that's not going anywhere. We Until we heal generational Violet, sorry, generational trauma, and we're still gonna be dealing with a lot of, a lot of this until we end things like colonization and, you know, war and militarization and White supremacy and patriarchy, like capitalism, we're still gonna have violence, harm and abuse. So, you know, i think it's easy to to be like out in the streets or on Facebook or whatever, or Twitter, and being like Nobody uses that. Maybe it's tick-tock now, i don't know, i don't know what the kids are using now. But, like you know, it's easy to be like no police, no prisons. It's so much harder to build the actual kind of community infrastructure and the things that we're actually gonna need. So when you, when I think about, like, how do we do that it's, i Think about what Grace Lee Boggs would talk about how we have to change ourselves and the world at the same time.

Mia: 1:08:06

Like that's that that we have to. We have to do more than one thing at the same time. Like we need you need to do your own work. We need to be doing work together, like whether that's building collective back. So maybe you should have your own values, your own personal, like you know, work that you're doing on yourself Me, including building your pod, including your own healing work, because we talked about including having joy and resilience in your life. All of those things you should. We should be doing that collectively, right, we should have collective values. Anybody who's part of any group, whether it's a family organization, a partnership You're a poly, really whatever you should have values Together. You should, if you're in a friendship, you should talk to your friend and say what are our values for our friendship? Like we should be doing these things collectively. We should talk about what are we gonna do when, when we have conflict.

Mia: 1:09:01

I mean you live in California I used to live in California for 10 years like, we practice fire drills and earthquake drills all the time Conflict happens much more Commonly than a fire or an earthquake but we never talk about what we're gonna do if something happens. That should be one of the first things. Right, that should be. These are conversations We should be having. What are we gonna do if one of us Thoughts up and and how do we want to be accountable? all of these conversations And this also includes things like healing, the healing justice work, all of that and But I also think, david, like a big part of this is We have to be doing this inside of our formations as well, like it's gotta be the people with the power whether that's the ED, the advisory board, whatever they may be Right, setting the tone and saying, like this is how we're gonna deal with conflict, or this is how we're gonna be deal with accountability in our organization, or or even, like you know, creating feedback and accountability loops.

Mia: 1:10:05

Like all of that type of work is what we should be doing. But especially, though, like I Mean, i can't stress our own individual work enough, because if we're on the same side, you don't have okay, you have to like everybody work with. First of all, i feel like there's this weird thing in movement culture That's like we all got to be besties or family and like We don't have to do that, but also like Ideally right, we should all be Stepping up to be braver and practice more with courage. So, if you hear somebody gossiping about somebody, say something you know like and it doesn't have to be punishing or shaming or blaming, but like it these are small interventions that we can make. If you, if you, if you know that somebody like, somebody hurt somebody else, right, and your friend is like, venting to you about, like oh my god, i can't believe they did this, whatever, whatever, you could, of course, hold space and support for that, for that friend, and you can also say You know, hey, i'm happy to hold space for your bed and both, and hopefully you have a culture of accountability, so it's already understood, or, if not, you can be like you know, i Also want to really I'm happy to do that and Like, at the end of this, also want to talk about how you can approach that person to tell them what, to tell them about this, because I think it's both sides right. It's like, how do you change if you never get feedback about What your problematic behavior that everybody is talking about? and and I know that every single person, including both of us, knows people like this, where we all talk about them. Right, everybody knows that they do like problematic shit, but nobody says anything to them.

Mia: 1:11:59

And this is why a fundamental Core concept of TJ is that we all or from adult core understanding is that we have a collective Responsibility for harm and violence and abuse.

Mia: 1:12:14

It doesn't mean that you have the same responsibility as the person who did the harm, but it means that you have some responsibility, just to say, to intervene if you and And we can understand this concept when we're talking about violence, right, like if you see somebody get beat up, like, try to stop that, i'm not not to you know, obviously that's safe, but you know what I mean like, but we don't really think about things in its beginning stages. So when That's a part of it too, right, like, how do we intervene and harm at its beginning, small stages instead of waiting till it escalates into something completely, totally Overwhelming and out of control? and just like spinning, completely out of control, the shit hits the fan, right, how do we like before that happens? Because the thing about harm is that it doesn't happen in a vacuum. Harm and violence do not happen in a vacuum. They come out of conditions.

Mia: 1:13:16

They come out of smaller The harms and forms of violence they come out of right trauma, all of this. So usually we can Wine back the clock and see how we got here, and nine ones out of ten It's because there were many, many, many, many, many smaller things that no one did anything about. Nobody said Hey, that's not okay. Or like, hey, you know, i know that, that these are the values you're committed to and that's not how you're behaving right now. Like what's going on. Do you need some support? Let's talk about it.

Mia: 1:13:50

Can I help you with anything? You know like I'm down to like listen or what's.

Mia: 1:13:55

Maybe there's other things going on in your life And I don't know about it, or stressing you out, or you feel unsupported, or you or you don't have anybody in your life You could talk to you. So I think that's part of how we do it, but I also think another part of how we do it is we have to think about Formal like in a more formal way, like we have to think about how can we support more people to be able to hold space, like ideally It would be the people who would be holding space for, like, an intervention or a mediation or whatever Would ideally be the people who are part of that community. Obviously, sometimes there's sometimes it can be helpful to have somebody from outside come in, if it's, you know, depending on what's going on. But So I think part of this is also like how do we all build our own skills as well And like? so there's the work that you do on yourself, but then there's also active, actual skills building.

Mia: 1:14:49

And, david, one of the things that I one of the trainings I run, is just a communication train. I've just like how do you listen? How do you listen? How do you practice active listening and accountable sharing, like, how do you listen, well, in a way that you don't disappear yourself, but how do you also share in a manner where you're not sucking all the air out of the room For a better thing? you know, like, but that's how basic we have to start. Do you know? do you soon say like We don't even know that well, how to do that? Well, most people don't even know how to tell their friend that they hurt their feelings like like that's how low the bar is.

David: 1:15:31

Well, most people can't identify their own feelings.

Mia: 1:15:36

We are on the same page, yeah, you and I, so we got it. We gotta do that work, and everybody needs to participate in it.

David: 1:15:43

It's like parenting.

Mia: 1:15:44

I know you said you're a new parent. It's like parenting, right you're. You're parenting all the time. It's not like, oh, i parent from sweet of four and then after, and then I'm like we're on, i just do, we do whatever, what. You are always parenting, um, and hopefully, we are always Practicing responsibility and accountability with each other, so that if I'm your friend and you're doing something that's like, or you say something That's like. Not, it's not like causing immense harm, but maybe it's not.

Mia: 1:16:13

It's not cool to say that I'm like hey, david, like that's not a cool thing, like you know, if you want to talk about it you can or that that's it right, and you're like oh, thank you so much. Yeah, right, and there's, it's like easy, it's not like a big thing We have to process.

David: 1:16:28

The people who are listening to this podcast are people who are probably like values aligned right um, and people like me Who, values aligned like, haven't necessarily taken those steps and all of those places in our lives Like what is the thing that you want to invite them to do as soon as, like, this podcast is over, or like right now, pause and like go have this conversation with X person.

Mia: 1:16:54

Build your pod. That would be the thing I would want everybody to do Like literally as soon as they're done. Listening to this podcast is like map your pod and or just or even just start thinking about it. Think about who you might approach in your life or who you might need to build more relationship with. I would say that's number one, because you need support in this work and pod. People are like some of the best people. As I say, that is number one. The second thing is to write out your values and put them up somewhere where you will see them every single day, maybe on your home lock screen of your phone, i don't know. Push yourself to practice them every day and share them with at least one person in your life. Those two things would be what I would say to do right away.

David: 1:17:43

There's an immense amount of work to do right and you know the concepts are simple but like. These are the small steps. These are the things that will get us started on that journey towards whatever word you want to say Right, relationship, collective liberation, equity, justice, trust. And there's always this acknowledgement from me that we're dealing with systems of oppression and powers that will not go away in our lifetime. But that doesn't absolve us of making the moves right now to reduce harm in the spaces that we can and continue to build the world that you know I want for, very specifically, my kid but, you know, future generations to come.

David: 1:18:36

As we've heard so much about doing this work is the practice, but it's always great to have some fundamentals. So if you want to tap into the intro to RJ racial and restorative justice course, the link to engage in that learning is in the show notes. If you want to go deeper in your practice or explore other aspects of doing work that is restorative and building a better world for future generations, we have learning opportunities for you to, both in courses and live workshops. If you're in a community school or organization that would benefit from this learning, we're more than happy to get on a call with you to talk about how we can support this work in your context. In addition to rating, reviewing and subscribing to this podcast, amplification of this work also means sharing these learning opportunities with others. So if they're individuals in your life who you want to really know this work in a deep and meaningful way and you've found the things that you've heard here on this podcast really relevant, please send them our way. It's how we literally amplify the work.

David: 1:19:27

Now back to the questions that everybody answers when they come on these airwaves. We're gonna do a shortened version of the questions that everybody answers when they come on this podcast. You've been in circles. You get to sit in circle with four people, dead or alive. Who are they? What is the one question you ask? that circle.

Mia: 1:19:46

Oh, that's really good. That's a great question. Well, yeah, this might be a little bit of a cop out, but no, it's not a cop out, but, like, as an adoptee, i think I would want to sit in circle with my mother, my grandmother, my both of my grandmothers actually, because one of them in my story was not so good And then this other lady that helped to raise. That was like my in-between person, but she spent like six months with me when I was from the time I was like a week old to six months. So I think I would want all four of them and I would want to ask them why, in terms of the adoption and like how they felt about it. I think I would want to kick it off with that, which I think would be a very lively and maybe, maybe dramatic conversation. But yeah, that's who I would say.

David: 1:20:52

Beautiful, so that's a perfect answer. Sometimes, when people answer the question, it's like Martin Luther King, gandhi, audre Lorde and like Naz and like they ask some like question about you know their approaches to the world, and then I flip the question back on the guest. I can't do that. I can't because you're not in the frame where you can answer questions from them about you know why. What I'm gonna do then is ask like what would you want to share with them?

Mia: 1:21:26

I mean, i would want to share with them.

Mia: 1:21:30

In the context of what we're talking about, like a circle is about, i would want to share with them my experience and just you know, i think like I think about my mom a lot my adopted mother I'm sorry, my birth mother a lot in TJ work because I think that for a lot of people they think giving up a child is like unforgivable and and so an adoption is a form of harm, like it is a form of violence and so, and trauma, like there's no adoptee. I know who doesn't have some kind of significant trauma because of it and so, yeah, like I, i think about her all the time because I don't have any bad feelings towards her and I don't. I have so much compassion for her and I feel like in the work that I do, it's just so beautiful so anyways.

Mia: 1:22:21

I want to share about my experience and I want to share that you know, like, like my feelings towards each of them and like how I think about them. Yeah, because, because we that the thing about all of this is in this whole conversation and I'm sure you talked about this a lot on the podcast is that we all cause harm, we, and we are all capable of causing immense harm and and or being violent, like like we. I think sometimes we think about harmers as being these, like other people, but we forget that, like, part of what we're talking about is that we want an accountable world. Obviously for your child, for sure, that's number one. For me, that's gonna be forever. Like definitely, but like all over, all of us like it. It behooves all of us to not practice punishment, because then, because we will all have our time on the chopping block. So I think, i think I would love to talk with them. Yeah, because I think my mom carries a lot of shame. I know she does. I know she does um, and you, know.

Mia: 1:23:29

I would want her to know like you don't have to carry that with you like I don't blame you. I I have so much empathy and compassion for for you because I know it was a. I know that you also suffer trauma from that decision too.

David: 1:23:44

Like it wasn't just me, you know thank you, thank you for sharing that, thank you for going there in that framework. That's a little bit different than what happens here. You didn't know that, but it was different and it was beautiful. Um, i love it. Um, this one requires a little bit of homework for you. Um, who's one person that I should have on the podcast, and the caveat is you have to help me get them on okay, listen, actually this is somebody who I bet you have not had, who is one of my good friends.

Mia: 1:24:10

Um, her name is Tajmika Torah and she is one of the co-directors of the firecracker foundation, and I will help you get her on but also I'm sure she would love to come up yes beautiful, love it, and that is.

David: 1:24:24

Yeah, we will link up about that. Um, and then finally, in the most expansive or the most specific way, how can people support you and your work in the ways that you want to be supported?

Mia: 1:24:34

um, one of the best ways so people can go to the soil website. Uh, it's called soil, a transformative justice project. You can just google it, yeah we'll open the show notes uh. So one of the best ways is to well, one, you can tell people about soil, um. But two, sign up for our listserv.

Mia: 1:24:52

If our email listserv, which is very low volume, like I actually haven't even sent one email out yet so if you sign up now, you'll get our first one, which is exciting, um, and then you can also become like if you want to donate money, that's great. You can also become a monthly donor.

Mia: 1:25:08

Um, yeah, i feel like those would be the main things that I would ask, that feel really supportive and also like if you want to share any of my work, um on, you know, do your network, social media, or by the word of mouth or email or whatever, uh, from my blog or what have you that feels really supportive? but but honestly, i just want people. I just want the work to be useful. So even if you do nothing like and just send me good vibes, that's good too beautiful.

David: 1:25:40

Um, definitely all of those things are linked in the show notes and definitely encourage people to share and engage and in all of those ways. Are there any last words that you want to leave the people with?

Mia: 1:25:53

um, i think the last words I want to leave the people with is that really, tj is practice. Um, it's yes, it's this analysis and it's tools, but if you don't practice them, it really means nothing and that you're gonna be practice is not perfection. Like we're talking about practicing and you'll you'll stumble oh, at first maybe a lot, and that's okay. That's why having support is really important. Um, so I would just leave people with like you know, if you're learning how to give a good apology, for example, practice it. Start small. Don't start with like the biggest, most important apology you have to make in your life. Start with like I'm sorry I didn't make the bed or I'm sorry I forgot you know sorry that I left the milk out and now it's not good absolutely.

Mia: 1:26:48

Yes, that would be a great example. Um, we got start practice and to remember that, like you know, you don't go to the gym to start bench pressing 500 pounds immediately you start small yeah, you don't sit down at a piano and immediately play a sonata you you learn chords you're clunky.

Mia: 1:27:12

You learn notes and rhythms and beats, and so have compassion for yourself, but remember that TJ is something, and this new world that we all want to create is something that we have to practice as much as possible, every day, as much as we can thank you so much for all all of that.

David: 1:27:35

Um, i'm so glad that we had this conversation, um. I'm gonna be reflecting on so many other things that we shared and I hope that folks who are listening right now take the pause to not just um you know, next podcast on to the next thing but take the moments to sit with this um, take the moments to strategize about your practice, um, and then join us again next week for another conversation with somebody living this restorative or transformative justice life. Until then, take care like would you heard. Please subscribe, rate, review and share this podcast on whatever platform you're using right now or, if you're old school, tell a friend. It really helps us further amplify this work. You can also support us by following us on our social platforms signing up for our email list, signing up for a community gathering, workshop or course so many options, links to everything in the show notes or on our website. Amplify rjcom. Thanks so much for listening. We'll talk to you next week. You.