This Restorative Justice Life

Human Regards: Bad mascots, money comets, and reimagining nature.

February 23, 2023 David Ryan Castro-Harris
Human Regards: Bad mascots, money comets, and reimagining nature.
This Restorative Justice Life
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This Restorative Justice Life
Human Regards: Bad mascots, money comets, and reimagining nature.
Feb 23, 2023
David Ryan Castro-Harris

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Carolyn: Welcome everyone. I'm Carolyn Sideco. 

Shanta: And I'm Shanta Loecker. And this is Human Regards. Today's episode is like a long, deep drink of ice cold water. So take a break, grab your glass, and join us as we invite you to reinvent your own spaces, diffuse power, and of course reclaim your peace.

Pregame, pregame. Whatcha are you drinking? ? 

Carolyn: Ooh, I am drinking hot water. 

Shanta: Just hot water. No, honey. You love, love. Just hot water. Love it. 

Carolyn: Nope. No accessorizing. Just boiled hot water. 

Shanta: That's amazing. I'm drinking hot water as well. Ah, but I had some ginger. Oh, and cinnamon and almond milk in it. So I ran out of like chai spice.

In full, so it's like halfway there, but not quite . 

Carolyn: What do you do to take care of your voice 

Shanta: contrary to what it may look like considering what we're doing right now, I'm not really that talkative. I, I do talk a lot in spaces. I feel safe and comfy, but I can be more reserved. So I don't think I have to consciously think about that too much.

When I used to have to be more conscious of it, the big thing was hydrating, you know, not drinking too much. That was definitely a big thing that dehydrates you so badly. I'm not gonna lie, I didn't, I didn't. I was never great at that because I was coaching also, sometimes I was just like, well, my voice will sound different tonight, but I'll still hit the right notes.

my go-to was always one and a half vodka soda. Oh, and then hot water. I actually drank hot water a lot like playing hot water. No, honey. Just like what you're drinking. Mm. Nothing interesting. , when you're, 

Carolyn: I don't even know. Are you a yeller when you're coaching, like on the sidelines? 

Shanta: No, but I definitely projected like a singer

Wow. Which always confused people. They were like, dang. How could, how did you get so loud? Definitely did not like just Gil. If that makes sense. If you're gonna project like that project from down here, cuz you're gonna lose your voice . 

Carolyn: No one ever told me that. I think because they probably wanted me to lose my voice.

So . Oh my gosh. Well this is interesting because I come from a culture where nonverbal communication is a different kind of language than, than how I understood it growing up. here in America. Right. But I learned gestures and non-verbal communication also as a, as another language through my family. Right? Or family members.

Like pointing with your nose. I had a hard time. I've always had a hard time translating that into American culture. Growing up, I remember hearing a lot of just say yes. Like even if you don't agree, not appeasing right? You're, you're yielding or you're giving way. . I've learned as I get older, it's like, it's not worth it cuz I can let, I can let go of things.

I don't have to give up my conviction or my thoughts on it. It's just that I don't have to push it so hard. 

Shanta: Mm-hmm. , that's something I aspire to

I will get there someday. 

Carolyn: So some people might, might, might characterize that as like giving up, but really if I do wanna stand for something that is counter to having to one. Someone or Or to oppress someone or to subjugate a thought I should kind of yield. I don't have to admit or take blame in order to yield.

It doesn't have to be like that. 

Shanta: Oh, totally. I mean, I'm not kidding when I say I aspire to that. I feel like Jemele Hill would call that unbothered, you know . Hmm. Thinking about, okay, the Super Bowl's coming up, but this Mascot. Is back in our face again, the chiefs, and it's not really a discussion that needs to happen.

There is no gray area there. It shouldn't, it shouldn't be a thing. Same with the Padres. We're celebrating things that are violent and oppressive, and yet it's when people hear the work that I do or they sort of learn more about it. A lot of times those are the first things that come up. And I think what I mascots 

Carolyn: like team Masco.


Shanta: things in, like discuss names, pop culture. Wow. So like, it, it, it maybe wouldn't be a mascot, but that's just something that you'll see like national sports media. Mm-hmm. . I'm getting to that point now where I'm just like, yeah, no, it's just wrong. I don't really wanna, I don't need to discuss that with you or explain why, but I do still catch myself sending them an article or sending them a link.

I do still feel a responsibility to give them something where it's like, if they actually care to know. They can find out why this is no gray area. This is just wrong. 10 years ago, I would've got into a very impassioned conversation with someone about that and exhausted myself, , and that's kind of what I mean about aspiring to that.

Like I, I'm not quite there yet where I'm just like, that's not my problem. I mean, I, that's like why I think that connection came up. 

Carolyn: How do you feel Ashanta? When that happens, like is it kind of like backtracking, like you have to mentally 

Shanta: backtrack. I don't know exactly the right word, but I'm probably more compassionate than, than most in that situation.

Just because I feel like, I don't think of it as like a fault of, you know what I mean? Like I'm not thinking, oh, I can't believe this person said that. It's more just like if you send me an email, I can send you, you know, an article or a website that you could. Look at more information from probably not the perspective I'm used to seeing.

Carolyn: 2004 

Shanta: from literally, I mean, I have 'em archived. I have so many articles about that that are like, I have a whole folder that bookmarks I know so I can send it because this is like old hats at the same time. It's been going on forever, and yet there's still people. Waking up to it. So I have 

Carolyn: been told in the past that I, I make people feel a certain way when I have to, when I have to have a discussion with someone about maltreatment of people, dehumanization of of people, I get a bit angry when I think things are assumed now people.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Get there. The work is too great and the work moves forward and the work, and if you're still back there. Catch up. 

Shanta: That is not my responsibility. Right. and I think there are people that have taken that on. So power to them, you know, power to them, power to them that, I don't think that's us though.

take a sprint, get in the car and Liz's gonna move on. You are un you're invited, but like, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna go backwards, like, we're not gonna reverse for you, so. Right, 

Carolyn: right. You gotta, you gotta pace. Pick up your piece. Let's go. 

Shanta: Last push hop in. Let's do it. , we have focused on space and power and peace very like intentionally in different, in different ways.

And I, I was hoping we could talk about space as far as the spaces that we're in. Where are we sitting right now? So I'm in, you know what we all know is Los Angeles part I live in is, is dense, you know, so it's busy. I'm also on, you know, this unseated land and that's something I, I think. all the time. A constant learning process.

Understanding what that really means in some way. Kind of comforting when I think about land back because it just makes so much more sense than, than everything else , than all the lines. It's so strange sometimes looking at maps of things and, and there's all these lines and dots, so much about better understanding the reality of.

Current indigenous history in California has helped me just make more sense of not only just of this city, but in understanding how we should care for each other and how we should care for the land that we're on and how we're not in so many ways, sidely, that idea of, of care. so central because you're caring for the people in this land that is providing, I love LA and part of loving being here is that there, those contradictions are very visible to me, and I like that.

I like being able to name those contradictions. I like being immersed in that, even though sometimes it's hard because it's like my social self and my spiritual self are like at odds and kind of pulling apart, and I like being immersed in that I, because I. It allows that, that critical questioning, that curiosity to kind of thrive.

And I didn't love living places where that stuff was made invisible. 

Carolyn: When you're talking in, we're, we're both on the so-called West Coast. Mm-hmm. , right? As you say, you are in Southern California. If people need a direct. . Mm-hmm. , and I'm in Northern California in the San Francisco Bay area. Both of us residing in locales where that contradiction, where the nuances of, of living in a place are almost in, in so numerous and inviting us though to, to have that discourse.

I'm glad we could be invited to it, or I feel like I'm in a place up in San Francisco, San Francisco Bay area, where that is almost a responsibility of a citizen of the citizenry. I'm going to go in with the assumption that there are layers of nuance and contradictions already. in what politicians are saying, in what, in what civic leaders are putting forth that everyone is not wholly horrible or not wholly altruistic.

Like there's something Yeah, like I'm okay and, and, and if I feel the pressure to know how to craft a land acknowledgement, that spirit of, of learning, of, of changing behavior, of evolving behavior. Cultivated out in the regions where you and I live. Right. And, and a lot of that is cultivated through, through force, through, through protests or what others might perceive as extreme in order to, to kind of like get to a place where everyone is, is considered.

We are home and home base to so much activism. and so much cultural sort of emergence. Mm-hmm. in so many different ways. Living in San Francisco, literally two blocks from the Pacific Ocean, the natural world. I see it changing every day. I've been. in this neighborhood for most of my life, and I see it changing.

I see not just the neighborhood, not just through gentrification that that's, that's mostly like the built environment. Permits are changing so people can build apartment complexes over three stories high in my neighborhood, which was a big deal. So we're not just talking about the built environment, I'm talking specifically.

Our natural environment, the, the coastal erosion that's happening literally right outside my door. So I, I think about nature in that way for sure. I've been attuned to, to thinking about nature in that way through nature framework training and wanting, wanting to connect more with the natural world.

Talk about like learning, right? As always, learning and being curious, but I remember when some friends of mine brought to my attention this. repatriation where land back comes from. And we were just so fascinated with it. And it was through the UHS land trust in which we learned that that brought us collectively, this, this group of, of friends we're in a family cooperative that has an ecology and social justice lens and values, and that's how we collectively learned about repatriation, about land back, about how, and.

To, to craft land acknowledgements. How, how to do that in a responsible way, in an honorable way. Mm-hmm. , we would teach that to our, to our kids. It was, we're doing something that we should be doing , because we, we wanna honor the, the people and the land. The clarity of human connection. Indian mascots for sports and stuff, that's an easy No.

Yes. Right? Yes. That's an easy no. Just not good for humanity. We we're not looking to rationalize that against the world. We gotta make sense of this in this world. No, it just 

Shanta: is what you're saying about not having to make sense of things. That, that's what I meant about the lines and the dots, you know, like that is, that's, that's society trying to make sense of something.

But in the process, actually dehumanizing. , like actual people. So that makes less sense to me, than if we see things with all of that complexity and with all the contradictions and there's a lot of non closure, you know, like there a lot of things that are open ended and in the sense that we do exist in different ways as humans here for sure.

The thing that isn. Like a, a loose knot like flail lately, you know, like it's untied is the, is our humanity, like you said, the thing that is solid and can guide us in understanding. . I mean, I feel like I'm like channeling my Angelo right now, but it, it seems so simple when you articulate it the way she does in terms of our humanity, in terms of just knowing that you know what is right and what is wrong.

It's like, do what is right because it's right without a million other reasons, without rationalizing it in a million ways. You know, just recognizing the humanity in, in yourself, recognizing that in other people and, and doing. What is right in relationship with yourself in in relationship with other humans?

Thinking about a lot, a lot of what you were saying in relation to nature , I'm thinking about some of our favorite elements. I mean, you already brought up a few. We both live in pretty dense. Populous cities, you know, like what are some of your, your favorite ways to connect to those things and what are they?

Carolyn: I do think both, like different landscapes, right? So I think about nature, obviously we think about the natural world, open spaces, green spaces, as, as. They might be called these days by whoever names that or whatever. Mm-hmm. . So I learned it in school as a social perspectives master student in kinesiology, the difference between a built environment and then a natural environment as a person who appreciates life and humanity.

I am, I am just today, shanta. I was driving, I took a route into downtown that took me through. A part of town where I could see the city scape. It never ceases to just take my breath away. When I go to the ocean, when I go to Ocean Beach, when I see the snowy plover birds on their daily grind, move it around real fast on the beach, I can imagine that.

Somewhere as I'm looking out there that the place that I am from my peoples are from is there. Growing up, we didn't have a backyard. We were in the park every day. So I considered Golden Gate Park. My, my backyard, I considered the ocean beach, my front yard. Mm-hmm. . And yet I was, I didn't really develop my connection to these places.

until really recently, how is my body a part of, and similar to this, this beautifully natural and built environment that just blows my mind. So that's my relationship with nature today, February, 2023 . 

Shanta: So not only does our relationship with all of that inevitably change over time and with our different experiences, but also I mean.

like literally the environment around us is changing. I was thinking about the, the broad in, in la it's one of the museums and it's pretty striking architecturally this one random day. I just found myself like standing there taking like a hundred pictures on my iPhone, trying to get different angles with the sky because for whatever reason it, I just thought it looked really cool that day.

And I, I have those same moments. The ocean. Same moments in mountains. The desert even. Yeah, I've been very connected to all of that stuff forever, in large, thanks to my father whose idea of vacation since I could remember was backpacking and I got to do some trips when I was younger and then, that continued, you know, as I got older.

But it started at a really young age where I got to do these trips where I was very much immersed in spaces that were very isolated. There was this one time we went backpacking in the Tetons in Wyoming. Wow. And. , we like heard a bear walk by and we're not that big. So it was, it was, we were prepared, like we did all the right things and nothing happened.

You know, we were in the tents and it was at night, but I have so many memories of being really immersed in these very powerful feeling. Spaces. And it feels like, to me, I think it still feels this way if I'm in like the mountains in Colorado or something where the power for me is like in the emptiness almost the actual like literal space around around me where I just feel so tiny and I feel so small.

It's a very comforting feeling for me. Mm-hmm. , I like that feeling of, of being. Almost insignificant next to these. Just vast, powerful, beautiful for, for me, that power comes from it being kind of unexplainable in that sense. It's like I'm not looking to the scientific explanation to understand why I feel small and why I feel comforted by that.

I, I felt very lucky, I guess, that I had a chance to do that. I've felt that in all kinds of places in California and on the East coast and other countries. And that feeling of insignificance almost is like connecting me really closely to my own humanity. . Because it's, it's like humility in a healthy way, you know, like understanding how vast the world is.

And I don't think I'm more than a part, it 

Carolyn: seems to me that you're comfortable in your, in your positionality. And then, and then expand that all the way to, you know, the universe, you know, galaxy, , 


you know, like , like I, I think like there's, and 

Shanta: then we're really small . , 

Carolyn: right and it's not counterintuitive.

People like to put it counter to each other because we always want, we always want to put things in a binary, but I think what, what makes it awesome? What makes things, well, how I perceive awesomeness is that the smaller I am, the more assured I feel, the more self-assured I am. The more. , the more grounded I feel.

Is that something that's that's come to me, or is that something that was already in me that I'm just now able to express? Is it the same sky that people from millions of years ago looked at, oh my gosh, Shanta this week. Well, you know the big, the big news this week is that big? Is that Green Comet? Did we talk about this?

Shanta: No, I was gonna ask you about it, but Oh, . One more time. 

Carolyn: This Green Comet. Yeah. C 2022. E three Z T F. That was last. Around like 50,000 years ago and will not be around anytime soon. And it was the closest to the earth on my birthday, 26 billion miles. And I will tell you this, I felt it. This comet brought some energies that I was like, woo, yes, let's go.

And my cousin said it's going to mean something. important to you in many ways because it'll be closest to us on your birthday. 

Shanta: That's pretty sweet . I know. Well, when you brought it up, I kinda like looked it up cuz I had never heard of it. I didn't realize that was happening. Oh my gosh. 

Carolyn: Shanta, did I tell you what my therapist said?

No. My therapist, I'm gonna tell people, my therapist said this, comet hasn't been here for 50,000 years. 

Shanta: Like since the Stone Age, 

Carolyn: right? Yeah. So what that my, my therapist has, what that tells me is that this comment has not yet met your energy. Carolyn . I hope this comment. is ready for you. not only helps me to feel empowered, but it also helps me to be humble in the fact that I am in relation, even with 

Shanta: this comment, like a false contradiction, not really, you know, feeling smaller and how much power that has, and it's, it's like feeling smaller in those moments or in those places.

In the ocean, you know, next to the ocean or in the desert or wherever you're at and you're feeling that connection. It, it's like underlying all that. There's this element of respect because there's a respect for that land and the earth and the. and the sky and the comet and . I guess it's like I bring this up cuz it, it feels, you were talking about like, is it like what is it, where is that coming?

Where is that interconnectedness starting from, like where is that coming from? And, and I think it also, it's probably all of the things you mentioned and, and also relates for me, like relates very closely to work and, and like kind of the way our values align with that because. So much of that is about, we talked about humanity earlier, respecting each human story as true.

Mm-hmm. and respecting each person's story as just as necessary as your own. There's like something about cultural humility that comes up for me because it, it's like related to this humility you experience in in nature, and. in these elements or with the green comet, which it's green, so I'm like, does that mean money

Right. Yes. I was actually gonna ask, cuz I don't really know much about astrology, but I'm like, green Comet sounds like it should mean 

Carolyn: all of my relatives, all my Asian relatives are telling me I need to go to the casino. 

Shanta: Okay. I was just, I'm like, green comment sounds very, Dramatic big changes coming. But then the green thing, I was like, okay, 

Carolyn: well my 6 year old nephew explained it to me why it's green.

Okay. Why its tail is green and has something to do with gases and mm-hmm. , things like that. But I. , but he knew how are, how are humans, you know, who, who've, who've discovered whatever, this green Comet mm-hmm. that, that's, that exists despite us, despite whether we know or not. Right. We're still connected to it, right?

Mm-hmm. , it, it allows itself to be seen that, that we get into our own psyche and say, well, what does it mean for us. And try to kind of like construct that for ourselves. Mm-hmm. , right? Construct that for ourselves. Maybe from from other spiritual meaning me meanings or from other experiences. Constant gleaning of trying to be one step ahead.

Therein lies this conversation with nature that we always wanna dominate. The earth will always make its way to balance cuz that's, . That's what harmony is. And harmony is nature. We create unbalance for ourselves because of so many other constructed things in this world, like institutional racism. Mm-hmm.

white supremacy culture and the earth is trying to teach us because, , the earth knows how to heal itself. It's not on our time, but the earth knows how to do that. Yeah. I mean that's, it'll do it on, she'll do it on her own time. 

Shanta: It's, it's like literally related directly to healing justice in the sense That's right.

That like we have the ability to restore and he'll innately, you know, we like, that's something that we have as human beings. It's something that we have practiced as communities well before. That balance and that harmony that you're talking about. I mean, I see that reflected in, in how we find balance and how we find harmony as people as well.

I wrote this down because it was just like I had a little light bulb moment. You know, , 

Carolyn: bring it shanta 

Shanta: and. More a personal one than anything that I'm trying to project on any, Ooh, onto anybody. But it's like things I knew, but I didn't really fully connect it. But there are two things that I think allow me to believe in something bigger than me, and I'm not.

So full disclosure, I'm not religious. I'm not really in tune with astrology. I don't know much about it, but I'm not actively anti any of this. It's just. as far as like how I function on the day-to-day, but there are these two things. Art is one, and earth is the other. That without question allow me to believe in something much bigger than me.

Allow me to believe that I'm a part of something much, much more powerful and bigger than me, and it's like my lack of understanding. in both of those realms. So in both art and thinking about earth and nature, that is what comforts me because it's so counter to like what society demands, which is having control of everything, like you talked about it, right?

Having control of everything and constructing all of these things so that we can put arbitrary labels and lines and dots and boxes on stuff so that we can communicate about it. For me, it's so freeing to think about. . What is so beautiful about art and nature is I cannot possibly actually grasp it. Like I can't actually understand it in those ways that are socially constructed, and that's like why I feel so connected and it's so not verbal.

It's like such a non-verbal thing. I've never even really tried to verbalize what it feels like when. , I'm standing on top of a mountain, for example, which I've done and it's pretty magical feeling and I, but I don't wanna verbalize it cuz I think that's the whole point is that it, it's so, it's, it's so far outside of that, that I don't need to, and, and acknowledging my inability to verbalize something, or inability to understand it in a way that feels like, you know, socially, sort of normal is what makes it so great and so beautiful.

and where I can find that balance. I don't know if this is getting too far out there, but , I, I almost imagine like it's human regards when you're , like if, if you really like shrink the space around you, right? And you're in this, in this sort of like bubble or, or I'm in a, I don't know, in like the driveway outside my apartment and like I'm shifting my weight and I can feel how that's impacting this space around me.

You know, and it's like this illusion that I have control over the space that I'm in, throw me on top of the mountain. and I shift my weight. I take a step. I have no ability to see how that, to possibly be impacting that space around me. That need for control just goes away, and that is like a very blissful feeling to me,

And I think that's why I do like being in, in those big open spaces and that lack of control and, and having no choice but to accept it, like to, to accept that lack of control is what is so powerful about. about nature for me, and like the ocean is probably the easiest example because ocean waves, you know what I mean?

What are you gonna do ? 

Carolyn: The acknowledgement, right? That you are not in control and the humility in that. But there's also like a release, right? There's a release and a surrender to that. Mm-hmm. . And that is, I think where that essence of, of freedom is. Mm-hmm. , when, when you talk about peace as, as your curiosity, as your critique, as your, you know, that, that, that sort of energy is when, when you can do that is, is peace for you.

Mm-hmm. . I'm wondering if this is an aspect of it that that balances, that your own nature has a way of balancing. In this context of our society, we, we say, oh, we're full of contradictions. Of course we are, cuz we're human beings. Instead of looking at it as contradiction, we look at it. as our own humanity, our own personhood.

Striving for and reaching balance. And having balance just like the oceans are affected by, by the moon. So are we 

Shanta: Obviously , I mean obviously we think about how we don't even have to think about it. We feel how those things affect us. Mm-hmm. all the time. People that are experiencing menstrual cycles to be really specific.

Mm-hmm. and how that. . Then again, I mean that, that is like a direct connection to these natural elements. When is Lunar New Year 

Carolyn: this year . Like when is it like my need, because I grew up in this Gregorian calendar, my need to know a specific date. I was talking to my mentor and I'm like, you know what? I think like I'm much more attuned to.

To that then, then the Gregorian calendar, because January 1st, or even like New Year's Eve does not mean anything. January 31st on the Gregorian Cal calendar holds no significance for me. That 

Shanta: calendar is. A product of organization like everything else, . I mean, so, you know, it's like, it makes so much, there's so many reasons why, you know, like that's not, that's not where your ancestors are from , like, right.

It, it wouldn't make sense. And, and just on like a really, I don't know, it feels kind of superficial to even say this, but on like a micro level, you know, thinking about that calendar, I also. I, I sort of reject the whole New Year's Eve, new Year's thing, and it's not, I don't think, I really don't think it is the commercialization.

I think that I just sort of like very, that it's like this bone deep feeling, you know? I like very deeply feel. That like most things is, is made up in the last few hundred years by all these various contracts that like I, I never connect with. So then, you know, a lot of times it's like, I don't even understand that.

I just won't really connect with it and don't really know why. I don't think it's the commercialization. It's not, it's just, it's like deeper. A deeper understanding of, of that just not being true to me and mm-hmm. and like having a, a completely revelatory moment, you know, according to that calendar on like July 20th

It's just as great as having a re revelation on. on the 1st of January. You know what I mean? You can't like time those things. You can't, you know, like you can't time and plan that like moment of growth or that moment of change with a calendar that doesn't Wait. What? 

Carolyn: What are you telling me ? Like, I can't plan it.

I can't put it in my planner. I 

Shanta: can't, but that's what they do. That's what people do. I mean, people that for, I mean, hundreds and hundreds of years. Have grown and, and like descended from, and, and lived in and lived on land in places where that's irrelevant, you know? So then suddenly we just snap our fingers and we're like, well, I have a resolution for January 1st because of this arbitrary.

because that's what the Gregorian calendar is. Mm-hmm. in a sense, it's kind of like this arbitrary chart. It doesn't even scientifically make that much sense. No. In terms of how we look at time. Mm-hmm. , which we, I think is, is sort of normalized, like I think people understand that now, but you know, it serves another purpose.

It definitely contributes to who holds power. in, in a lot of ways. And, and that calendar being the one that's sort of like normalized globally, that absolutely has implications for who holds power. It makes sense for a certain lens that we've all just had to take on and make part of our lives every day.

So bizarre. . 

Carolyn: Oh my gosh. Shta. Okay, so we should go to our piece. How have you reinvented or reclaimed. constructed spaces to align with who you are this week 

Shanta: actually related to this relationship with nature. For me, I mentioned backpacking, right? A lot of that relationship when I was younger, which was absolutely wonderful and I think taught me.

a level of respect that I still think is really important. I mean, when I was, I was literally, I was like five and six going on these hiking trips and like being told like not to move the rock, like , you know, like keep things as they are. And that was really, really important to my dad. And so that was something ingrained in me from a very young age.

But I, I do think something that I'm, I'm learning and for me does bring. Some peace and also help me sort of reclaim that relationship just for myself as, as someone who is diff different than my dad was in a lot of ways is that now my relationship with those spaces feels more calm. I don't feel like I have to be exercising, if that makes sense.

Like I don't feel like I have to be trucking up a mountain, which I did many times. You know, like I, I don't have to be struggling with a 20 pound backpack and my calf muscles burning. for me to appreciate the power of that space, appreciate the challenge that it can bring. You know, like I find myself a lot now, some, some might just call this lazy, I don't know.

But I find myself a lot now being in those spaces and, and just existing, you know, like literally just being there and not putting pressure on myself to. Do a hill run or clock a certain number of miles or whatever. I find myself just being in those spaces and being very improvisational and very free to just do what I feel like doing.

Like that for me is the point of even being at the ocean or even being in the mountains, is to have that freedom. You know? Maybe that's why I don't have a Fitbit. Maybe that's why I don't have an Apple watch, you know, . So I. I'm getting out of that sort of mode of life where I'm not concerned with, with tracking all of that, and, and more concerned with letting myself be in those just to be there.

But, you know, like for no other reason, but just to be there. 

Carolyn: Wow. I'm gonna, I'm just gonna put it out there Shta, like from now I'm like, that's, we're gonna go with that as an assumption. , like as an afford. . Right? That's baseline. Baseline, right. Humanity is a development of, of the consciousness of, of being, instead of being somewhere to do something.

Shanta: It's a baseline, but it took me a real long time to Yes. Figure that out. , 

Carolyn: right, right. for me, reinvention or. reclamation or reimagination even of my relationship with nature is, is ongoing. This week. It definitely looked like, Hey, green Comet, what are you up to? Mm-hmm. it. It looked like an actual conversation that I allowed myself to have with this celestial.

Entity. Do you have anything for me? Is there something I can attune myself to? And that's what peace was to me this week. My, my relationship with nature allows me to be very, , expansive. You 

Shanta: are evoking the weirdest. I I'm just listening to you and suddenly I'm thinking about, I'm thinking about being in and like you, right?

And just being up there and just screaming and taking up all the space I want and being expansive because if it feels safe to do that in, in that, Like in that relationship with, with nature, it's like, it's so big I can't even touch it. Right. So like go, go ahead and scream, go, you know, go ahead and ex and, and be, take up all the space you want.

You know, and, 

Carolyn: and nature can hold that with you. Yes. Yes. Exactly. That's what's that? That's what's amazing. That's what's awesome. 

Shanta: That relationship to nature and just access to those spaces and that feeling like that, that is like a human. Human right. . 

Carolyn: That's right. Right. It should be. 

Shanta: I mean, it should be thought of as a human right to, that's right.

To be in relationship with the place That is everything.

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